Why must we believe *before* we die?

No. That's actually not what we believe.We believe that "works" are a manifestation -- or potential evidence -- of God's grace being active in a person. In other words, the prompting of the Holy Spirit is the motion that moves a person to do good works in the first place (cf, Catholicism v. Arianism).It should also be noted that very few Christian groups that I know of will ever deny that the Holy Spirit is the agent by which God's grace is transmitted. What seems to be the subject of heated debate is what authentically constitutes a valid manifestation of the Holy Spirit at work in the lives of each individual.According to my Catholic faith no one does anything good in God's sight except by the power of the Holy Spirit -- and that includes Christ himself (since everything he did, including his own incarnation, was by the power or motion of the Holy Spirit).Please note that I think there are a few fellow Catholics that do not explain this very well at times. However, I think it could be fairly stated that there is a coupling occuring within the interaction of grace and works -- and it can be very difficult to discern which comes first from our own limited human perspective.Having said that, it is nonetheless believed by Catholics that no good work is accomplished outside the prompting of the Holy Spirit -- and the Holy Spirit is believed to be the initial spark that sets the work into live action.Edit: corrected grammar, added notes to clarify position.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-05-2005 10:20 AM

I see what your saying here. On the surface these things all appear to be strictly works orientated. However, Catholic doctrine teaches that these "visible signs" are basically various types of "evidences" of the Holy Spirit being active in the individual -- points of contact (or even direct encounters) with God so to speak. Yes, and this is what I was refering to before when I said that some fellow Catholics do not actually explain this part very well. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not condeming him. But the example he gave you was an over-simplification to the point of being somewhat in error. So long as the Holy Spirit is not removed from the equation (and given proper credit as the original source of the work), your description above is fine.Like I said before, the case of Arian debates with the Catholic church is a good example of just how far Catholicism will go in admitting what man can accomplish spiritually on his own. Most certainly possible -- yes. But, the persons "works" are not earning their salvation. They're losing it based on their works. In other words, we can do nothing to "earn" our salvation -- but we can do plenty to shipwreck it.As a former Lutheran, I've given much thought about this matter. I do recall how Luther's thoughts focussed on his beliefs that the church was fixated primarilly on their relationship with a very angry God -- and to this extent many in the Catholic church now do agree with him.However, in analyzing these things, Luther, for example, would note how people might say more prayers, or fast more strictly, or even whip themselves more mercillessly. Eventually at some point the believer might attain a certain "knowledge" that God regarded them favorably in some way. Luther tried all these methods yet none of them worked for him. Consequently, the harder he tried to please God, the more he realized that he was depending not on God, but on his own efforts.Now this is very important because this "realization" essentially forms the basis of the protestant reformation.It was from this point on that Luther began to question some of the more Catholic thoughts he was trained to have. However, in doing this, he essentially concluded that his own actions were solely an attempt to justify his salvation before God. This may not have been the case.Although I seriously doubt that God was prompting Luther to actually whip himself, it still remains a very potent "realization" to instead conclude that the Holy Spirt was at work in Luther when he was saying more prayers or fasting more strictly.The difference may be subtle. However, I think there are major theological consequences to Luther's idea of saying that doing "good works" are potentially bad for people. It is rare -- but sometimes when I listen to certain protestants speak, one would almost conclude that they are saying that doing "good works" is a potential evil. I don't agree with that.I admit that we cannot "earn" our way into heaven by our "good works". But I also stress that if something is considered a "good work" in God's eyes, it is because the Holy Spirit is active in them. These are fairly subjective questions. For example, when my own Catholic faith was persecuting non-Catholics during the Middle Ages, I'm fairly sure that God understood why the people took a grudge against Catholicism and left the church. If, however, the person totally went ballistic and started a war against Catholics, then he might have some explaining to do (just like my fellow Catholics would have explaining to do for killing non-Catholics and "heretics" and...you get the picture...). Although no one but God can say for sure, I'm fairly confident that ex-Catholics (such as Stalin) will not find themselves in the warm fuzzies of the Most High.

No problem. If I could just explain a few things in detail though -- I think all Christians do agree that salvation comes by the motion of the Holy Spirit.In this sense, as a "pneuma" or "wind" or "breath" of the Lord, it is generally believed that God's spirit is the agent which moves each individual to do what God wills. Or, as the Scriptures state in Ephesians 2:10, we generally all agree in some way that humanity is created in Christ "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."Putting it in simple terms, it appears as though God has in some way "fore-ordained" the paths that we should walk in. And, if we simply follow the motion of the Holy Spirit, like a sailboat being pushed along by a wind, we will not veer away from our fore-ordained paths.In saying this though, man also appears to have the capacity to resist the motion of the Holy Spirit. Again, I suppose it's much like a man on a sailboat riding the wind. So long as they do not resist the winds that push the sailboat, they will not end up capsized or shipwrecked. Just as the sailor has no control over the wind that carries his vessal along the waters, the believer in God likewise has no control over the Spirit that moves him along God's fore-ordained paths.Consequently, in both the case of the sailor and the believer, neither can take the credit for moving themselves along their path. In both cases it was an external source which empowered them to move along -- the sailor gives credit to the wind whereas the believer gives praise to God's Spirit.In the case of the sailor we see that, if he did take credit for getting somewhere, he's actually claiming to control the wind itself which pushed him along -- and yet in reality he has no control over where the wind guides him. For him to make this claim would be a rather futile and vain claim.Similarly, in the case of the believer, we see that, if he did take credit for attaining salvation, he's actually claiming to control God himself -- and yet in reality he has no control over where God guides him. For him to make this claim would be a rather futile and vain claim.Like the wind, we understand that God guides us wherever he pleases. We hear the sound of his voice, can feel his Spirit moving us internally along his desired will, but we cannot tell exactly where God comes from or where God is going. It is the same with everyone born of the Spirit.It is in this sense that we Catholics say we cannot accomplish our own salvation. Or stated more simply, we can do nothing to earn our salvation. Our salvation is merited solely by God's grace as we are moved by his Spirit. To think otherwise, in my opinion, leads us into the adversary's trap of pride, conceit, and arrogance.Now, for the record, I think that this is what Paul was speaking of when he was warning against people thinking that our own good works could "win" our salvation. Many seem to think that Paul was stating that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ will be damned -- therefore comdemning those outside the church. I, however, think that Paul was warning about the church itself becoming selfish and prideful -- a warning directly to those who do believe in Christ not to think too highly of themselves lest they begin think they can do it without God.For example, Paul says: Consequently, I do think that Christ addressed this very matter in the gospels. For example, Christ is quoted as basically saying that we should not think too highly of ourselves -- and he warns that we should not wait around for a reward after we complete God's work. More specifically, he says that we should not become too proud of doing God's work because there's still much work to be done -- and when we do a good work, we should not think to highly of ourselves because the work that we did for God was what God expected us to do in the first place.Perhaps Christ's greatest statement regarding how the Spirit of God works can be seen as follows: In other words, as far as I am able to determine, Simon Peter didn't figure out that Jesus was the Christ via his own intellect or power. The knowledge did not come by natural descent, human decision, or a husband's will. Simon Peter, via a revelation from the Spirit of God, uttered his famous words as he was moved by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.Indeed, according to the Scriptures themselves, no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. Even prophecy never had its origin in the will of man -- but was generated as men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.Although we Christians do not necessarilly agree with each other regarding what might constitute an authentic manifestation of God's Spirit (cf. sacramental v. personal), we Catholic Christians do nonetheless believe that the same is true for our "good works" too.In other words, just as no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, we also believe that no one can do "good works" except by the Holy Spirit too.Just wanted to make that clear.________________I apologize if I've somewhat derailed this thread. But I just felt prompted to explain this in more detail as the Spirit led me so that no confusion or misunderstanding would result.

You're quite welcome.

Alright.Technically speaking, I disagree with your observation about the passage I quoted. It seems to me that our responsibilities as Christians are intricately linked with our salvation. However, for the sake of discussion, perhaps you could display the passages outside the gospels that were spoken by Paul (and the others) -- the passages which stress salvation solely by faith in Christ.Within the context of the passages which specifically discuss salvation from Christ, I think that with a careful reading one can also see Paul warning us not to think too highly of ourselves. To suggest that there is no causal connection with salvation/damnation here at all seems to be overlooking how much other parts of the Scriptures do seem to stress the good deeds necessary.Again, I'm not saying that our good deeds save us. I'm saying that it is the Spirit of God at work in each person which saves us -- and that the good works observed are simply the end result of the motion of God's Spirit at work in us. What other option is there?If God simply saves whoever he chooses to save -- without any possibility of humanity even choosing their own paths -- then there seems to be basically no difference between God "saving" a person's soul and that of nature "naturally selecting" a species as being fit for survival.In regards to our salvation, I don't believe that God works that way -- and I find it odd that many denounce evolutionary models as cruel yet adamantly insist that God "saves" in a manner that is not far removed from the blind mechanisms of Darwinian evolution. Actually, I do.However, I would qualify that while all Christians have a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them so long as they are alive, non-Christians can still nonetheless be moved by the Spirit toward salvation -- and I do believe that many non-Christians are moved toward salvation more often than some Christians would permit. Are you suggesting that we Christians can do whatever we please without having to face the wrath of God -- because I don't think that's what the passage you've quoted above means.In response to this, I suppose passages such as this come to mind: It seems to me that there are many passages in the Scriptures which testify that Christians can fall away from their salvation in Christ. Somewhere between the passage you've quoted and the passage I've quoted probably lays the exact point where God resolves the fine-line between salvation and damnation.I guess I'll just stick with what I've been saying all along: God judges in proportion to that which is revealed to each individual. If you're asking me to personally discern the exact line between damnation and salvation from one individual to the next, I'll readilly admit that I do not know that. I cannot see into the spirit of each individual.Only God knows that -- and I'm not God.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:07 PM

Well..people can pretend to be Christians and be far off the mark. There are certain televangelists that I can think off that could match this, such as the con-artist Benny Hinn. In other words, they carry on and call themselves Christians so as to get approval from others -- but their hearts may possibly be in the wrong place.Likewise, in inverse proportion, I suspect that there are some that do believe in God, and it's known by their actions, and yet their experiences in other cultures may be antagonistic toward God and somewhat obscure their ability to really display their faith.It seems to me that there are many ways one could misunderstand what a person actually thinks and believes. Likewise, some could be pretending to believe in God, even going through the motions becuase it's what others expect (and thus appearing to be a believer), and yet deep down inside they may have no faith at all.I think only God can say for sure what's going on in the hearts of each individual.Edit: corrected spelling.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:04 PM

Legend and I may be hotly disagreeing over in the other thread. But I think he makes an excellent point here.I would like to hear the response to this.

iano, I would like to discuss this further. But, unfortuantely I have prior engagements at home, work and in another couple threads here at EvC. When I have a chance I will respond to your very well thought out post here.