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Author
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Topic: No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what?
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 46 of 173 (249905)
10-07-2005 7:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 42 by bkelly
10-07-2005 7:29 PM
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Not preposterous at all.
quote:
Everything had a begining.
That is an unproven assertian.
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by bkelly, posted 10-07-2005 7:29 PM | | bkelly has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by Yaro, posted 10-07-2005 10:13 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied | | | Message 79 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 8:58 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 47 of 173 (249906)
10-07-2005 7:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Heathen
10-07-2005 7:53 PM
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Re: Other options????
The only place we've examined is here on earth. Until there is evidence otherwise, why would we make any judgement about other than here on earth? But there is no evidence that life does not exist in other places or that it has not existed for all time.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Heathen, posted 10-07-2005 7:53 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by Heathen, posted 10-07-2005 8:06 PM | | jar has replied |
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bkelly
Inactive Member
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Message 48 of 173 (249907)
10-07-2005 8:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Heathen
10-07-2005 7:53 PM
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Re: Other options????
Good point Creavolution. Further, there is common agreement among scientists of the earth ( I cannot come up with the classification of those people right now) that the earth had a long phase of being molten and far too hot to have any life of any sort. Life could not have existed on the earth in perpetuity. (added a moment later) BTW: The earth did not exist for the first several billions of years of the universe. This message has been edited by bkelly, 10-07-2005 08:04 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Heathen, posted 10-07-2005 7:53 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 10:30 PM | | bkelly has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1302 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 49 of 173 (249908)
10-07-2005 8:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by jar
10-07-2005 7:58 PM
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Re: Other options????
I would suggest there is sufficient evidence to say 'terrestrial' (for want of a better word) life doesnot and cannot exist in the vacuum of space... for instance. But we're heading towards questioning the definition of life itself now.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 7:58 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 8:15 PM | | Heathen has not replied | | | Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 10-07-2005 8:51 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 173 (249910)
10-07-2005 8:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Heathen
10-07-2005 8:06 PM
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Re: Other options????
I would suggest there is sufficient evidence to say 'terrestrial' (for want of a better word) life doesnot and cannot exist in the vacuum of space... for instance. Really? We've made similar assumption many times in the past only to soon find out we were wrong. For example we were pretty sure that life could not exist in the cold, dark high pressure environment of the deepest marine trenches. We were pretty sure life could not exist within the ice at the poles. We were pretty sure that life could not exist in hot sulpher springs. Yet in each case, we found we were wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Heathen, posted 10-07-2005 8:06 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by bkelly, posted 10-07-2005 9:07 PM | | jar has replied |
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 51 of 173 (249914)
10-07-2005 8:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Heathen
10-07-2005 8:06 PM
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Life in outer space
The evidence is that life can survive in outer space. It seems enormously unlikely that it could arise and thrive there but once in existance the spoors of some bacteria are very tough indeed. See: http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=9380
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Heathen, posted 10-07-2005 8:06 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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bkelly
Inactive Member
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Message 52 of 173 (249918)
10-07-2005 9:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by jar
10-07-2005 8:15 PM
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Re: Other options????
I need a clarification here. What do you mean by life existing in the vacuum of space? If you mean a pure vacuum, then from what can the life exist. There is nothing in a vacuum so nothing can exist, much less life. Do you mean on a small mote of dust wandering about in the vacuum of space? Or maybe one gram of rock. One Kilo gram. You get the picture?
Truth fears no question. bkelly
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 8:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 9:25 PM | | bkelly has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 53 of 173 (249924)
10-07-2005 9:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by bkelly
10-07-2005 9:07 PM
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Re: Other options????
for life to exist something must exist, but there is no reason to thing that where something exists, life exists.
Surviving in Space
In November, 1969, the Surveyor 3 spacecraft's microorganisms were recovered from inside its camera that was brought back to Earth under sterile conditions by the Apollo 12 crew. The 50-100 organisms survived launch, space vacuum, 3 years of radiation exposure, deep-freeze at an average temperature of only 20 degrees above absolute zero, and no nutrient, water or energy source.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by bkelly, posted 10-07-2005 9:07 PM | | bkelly has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 71 by Heathen, posted 10-08-2005 10:20 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6515 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: 07-12-2003
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Re: Not preposterous at all.
That is an unproven assertian. Might I add, unprovable as well.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 10-07-2005 7:55 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 55 of 173 (249935)
10-07-2005 10:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by bkelly
10-07-2005 8:02 PM
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Re: Other options????
There are even microbes that can live IN a nuclear reactor.
Can you believe it? There are bacteria that can live *inside* nuclear reactors. Deinococcus radiodurans "The members of the family Deinococcaceae have the distinctive feature of being the most radiation-resistant of vegetative cells. Certain strains have survived as much as 5 Mrad of gamma radiation. An important component of this radiation resistance is the ability to repair damage to chromosomal DNA." -- National Center for Genome Resources So far we have not found an environment where life cannot exist. Everywhere we look we find life. That's why sterilization is such a big problem.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by bkelly, posted 10-07-2005 8:02 PM | | bkelly has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 56 of 173 (249941)
10-07-2005 11:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by Nuggin
10-07-2005 5:44 PM
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Re: Some alternatives
1) Naturalistic - Abiogenisis
2) Panspermia
3) Creation by God
4) Creation by a divine entity other than God (Maybe the Angels created life. Maybe the Devil. We have no reason to believe otherwise)
5) Life has always existed everywhere in the universe.
6) Gaia - Earth, and everything alive on it, is part of one large organism.
7) Life does not exist at all - we are mistakingly attributing ourselves with "life" when in fact we are not alive
8) Creation by super intelligent aliens
9) Creation by future Humans sending life back through time (yes, it's a paradox, but still more reasonable than the spagetti monster theory) Really it all appears to break down to naturalistic origin vs. creation by something or someone, as I've been saying. 3, 4, 8 and 9 are creation, the rest are naturalistic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by Nuggin, posted 10-07-2005 5:44 PM | | Nuggin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 10-07-2005 11:19 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: 08-09-2005
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Message 57 of 173 (249943)
10-07-2005 11:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
10-07-2005 11:12 PM
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Re: Some alternatives
Well, 3 & 4 are magic creation while 8 & 9 are also naturalistic So basically it comes down to it either was done by magic or not
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Faith, posted 10-07-2005 11:12 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by Faith, posted 10-07-2005 11:22 PM | | Nuggin has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 58 of 173 (249944)
10-07-2005 11:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Nuggin
10-07-2005 11:19 PM
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Re: Some alternatives
Actually since 8 and 9 bring up the infinite regress situation, the question of the origin of the aliens and the future humans, it is not yet determined whether they are naturalistic or supernatural. This message has been edited by Faith, 10-07-2005 11:23 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 10-07-2005 11:19 PM | | Nuggin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by Nuggin, posted 10-08-2005 12:11 AM | | Faith has replied |
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: 08-09-2005
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Message 59 of 173 (249953)
10-08-2005 12:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
10-07-2005 11:22 PM
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Re: Some alternatives
Then there is an infinite regression with the God scenario as well. Who made God? Where was God before the universe?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by Faith, posted 10-07-2005 11:22 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by Faith, posted 10-08-2005 12:14 AM | | Nuggin has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 60 of 173 (249954)
10-08-2005 12:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Nuggin
10-08-2005 12:11 AM
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Re: Some alternatives
Except that the way we know about God is through revelation (though some are smart enough to see Him in His creation), and revelation tells us that He is uncreated. No infinite regression of the Biblical God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Nuggin, posted 10-08-2005 12:11 AM | | Nuggin has replied |
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