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Author Topic:   A puzzling thing about traditional religion
John
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 100 (24461)
11-26-2002 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by forgiven
11-26-2002 4:06 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
ok john... i can't explain it any better than i've tried...
Oh come on now. It stops being fun when you just give up like that.
quote:
if you feel a person who knows what you're going to choose is forcing you to so choose, that's all that can be said on the subject...
I don't believe that a PERSON who knows .....
quote:
God knows the choices we will make.. yes, he *knows* what i'll choose for lunch tomorrow... he didn't cause me to choose one thing over another... he didn't impose his will on mine, he didn't overrule the ham and cheese in favor of the turkey on rye... he simply knew which i'd choose *of my own free will*... that's all there is to it
Could you choose differently? If no, then there is no free will. If yes, then God is wrong. Simple really. Which is it? Free will, or an infallible God?
There is one other option 'o course.....
[/B][/QUOTE]
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by forgiven, posted 11-26-2002 4:06 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-26-2002 5:15 PM John has not replied
 Message 93 by forgiven, posted 11-26-2002 6:55 PM John has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 100 (24473)
11-26-2002 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by John
11-26-2002 4:26 PM


John I'm sorry I have tried to understand your reasoning on this one. Usually i can see your point, this one I can't.
Just what I am saying anyways I can't speak for anyone else is that God knows your innermost thoughts, so he therefore knows what you will choose however much it may sadden him. But even though he knows this is what you will choose he does not intervene because he has chosen in his free will to give us free will.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by John, posted 11-26-2002 4:26 PM John has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 100 (24498)
11-26-2002 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by John
11-26-2002 4:26 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
ok john... i can't explain it any better than i've tried...
Oh come on now. It stops being fun when you just give up like that.

i wasn't giving up, i was just a little sad at that time... know what i mean? another poster just made me almost unbearably sad... happens sometimes, i'll get over it [quote]
quote:
if you feel a person who knows what you're going to choose is forcing you to so choose, that's all that can be said on the subject...
I don't believe that a PERSON who knows .....[/b][/quote]
God is a person, john... he has all the attributes of personality... he's a *divine* person, true, but a person nonetheless [quote]
quote:
God knows the choices we will make.. yes, he *knows* what i'll choose for lunch tomorrow... he didn't cause me to choose one thing over another... he didn't impose his will on mine, he didn't overrule the ham and cheese in favor of the turkey on rye... he simply knew which i'd choose *of my own free will*... that's all there is to it
Could you choose differently? If no, then there is no free will. If yes, then God is wrong. Simple really. Which is it? Free will, or an infallible God?[/b][/quote]
of course i could choose differently!! that's my whole point... how can that be, you ask? maybe i'll get into it one day... still a tad down... but i'll get over it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by John, posted 11-26-2002 4:26 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by joz, posted 11-26-2002 7:08 PM forgiven has not replied
 Message 95 by John, posted 11-26-2002 7:18 PM forgiven has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 100 (24503)
11-26-2002 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by forgiven
11-26-2002 6:55 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
God is a person, john... he has all the attributes of personality... he's a *divine* person, true, but a person nonetheless

Actually hes missing one, exsistence.....
*Oh my aching sides* seriously FMF don`t vent on me just yet, its just a little comment that is in no way disrespectfull of the idea of God it just disagrees that he exsists....
If you don`t like it prove Gods exsistence.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by forgiven, posted 11-26-2002 6:55 PM forgiven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-27-2002 12:23 AM joz has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 100 (24506)
11-26-2002 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by forgiven
11-26-2002 6:55 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
God is a person, john... he has all the attributes of personality... he's a *divine* person, true, but a person nonetheless

[Fixed close quote. --Admin]
This is just unbearably trite. The theology of God's personhood has nothing to do with the arguments presented. And I think you know this.
quote:
of course i could choose differently!!
How do you know?
quote:
still a tad down... but i'll get over it
I'm sorry you are sad.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by Admin, 11-28-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by forgiven, posted 11-26-2002 6:55 PM forgiven has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 100 (24532)
11-27-2002 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by joz
11-26-2002 7:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
God is a person, john... he has all the attributes of personality... he's a *divine* person, true, but a person nonetheless

Actually hes missing one, exsistence.....
*Oh my aching sides* seriously FMF don`t vent on me just yet, its just a little comment that is in no way disrespectfull of the idea of God it just disagrees that he exsists....
If you don`t like it prove Gods exsistence.....

Joz as a former critic i see where you're coming from, but as a child of God it cuts when you mock him. You can mock me but please don't mock God. thanx , i know i've freaked out a few times but here's why.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by joz, posted 11-26-2002 7:08 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2002 8:46 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 97 of 100 (24774)
11-28-2002 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by funkmasterfreaky
11-27-2002 12:23 AM


To solve the predestination problem, Boethius suggested that God is "outside of time." Obviously that's hard to imagine but we're talking about God here. If God is outside of time then everything is Now to God. There is no past or future. In such a case, he does not FOREsee anything. He just sees it. So free will is possible.
But I guess this also means that time is illusory since God presumably sees reality. The indicator of time is change, and so God lives in a changeless world observing our illusory world of time.
A changeless world sounds pretty boring to me, but I guess God is unbore-able.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-27-2002 12:23 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by forgiven, posted 11-28-2002 10:30 AM robinrohan has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 100 (24783)
11-28-2002 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by robinrohan
11-28-2002 8:46 AM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
To solve the predestination problem, Boethius suggested that God is "outside of time." Obviously that's hard to imagine but we're talking about God here. If God is outside of time then everything is Now to God. There is no past or future. In such a case, he does not FOREsee anything. He just sees it. So free will is possible.
But I guess this also means that time is illusory since God presumably sees reality. The indicator of time is change, and so God lives in a changeless world observing our illusory world of time.
A changeless world sounds pretty boring to me, but I guess God is unbore-able.

it sounds boring cause it's nearly unimagineable... i'm not sure boethius was saying time is an illusion any more than matter is an illusion... both exist, both came from something... energy? is that a synonym for God's thoughts? i don't know
i talked about all of this to Q in another thread, wrote for over an hour, my isp disconnected, when it reconnected everything shut down... so a long reply *poof* gone... ah well, maybe i'll get the energy/time to start again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2002 8:46 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2002 12:06 PM forgiven has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 99 of 100 (24804)
11-28-2002 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by forgiven
11-28-2002 10:30 AM


I agree with you, Forgiven. It makes perfect sense to say that there's a difference between God knowing what you are going to do and God forcing you to do it. The matter is not as simple as John makes it out to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by forgiven, posted 11-28-2002 10:30 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 8:51 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 100 (25025)
11-30-2002 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by robinrohan
11-28-2002 12:06 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I agree with you, Forgiven. It makes perfect sense to say that there's a difference between God knowing what you are going to do and God forcing you to do it. The matter is not as simple as John makes it out to be.
yeah it makes sense... whether it's true or not is a different subject, but to not accept it as even possible seems... well, needlessly argumentative

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2002 12:06 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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