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Author | Topic: Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm just picking on you! Trying to stir you up a bit. Getting you to think.
I respect the research that goes into your posts in some ways. My question that I ask myself when I compile information is why I am compiling it. Do I seek to entertain? Enlighten? Inform? or Persuade? Perhaps Trixie can respond before you or I carry her post off topic.Lets wait for her to join in on the discussion.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I don't know much about RC practices, which his why I am using "from the outside"
While driving home, I sometimes listen to evangelical radio discussions. These are the scholarly type, not the rabble-rouser type of discussion. For example, "The Bible Answer Man" is one such program. The question of the RCC sometimes comes up for discussion. Various issues are mentioned. I don't recall "maryolatry" as ever mentioned. The chief objection that evangelicals have to RCC, is over salvation. They insist that salvation is by grace alone, due to faith alone. They criticize the RCC for salvation based on works. Whether they correctly characterize the RCC position, I do no know. My main point - the issue regarding Mary is apparently not seen as significant. Doubtless the evangelicals don't agree with it, for they don't follow those practices. But they apparently do not see it as idolatry. It might be different among the rabble rousers.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good point, nwr. Makes sense to me.
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-10-2005 02:21 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm a Protestant. The Reformers denounced the RC Church for a whole raft of violations and mariolatry is only one of them. They also called the Papacy the Antichrist. As I've said, you are free to believe what you like, but I am representing the Reformation Protestant view of the RC Church quite accurately.
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3731 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
You say
but I am representing the Reformation Protestant view of the RC Church quite accurately. Fine, so long as we're clear that you're giving an opinion which you have no evidential support for. The next time you make the statement that the RCC is guilty of "Mariolatry", you should qualify it with the phrase
but that is only an opinion which I am unable to find any evidentiary support for and flies in the face of what RCs themselves claim to be doing since you've failed to support it in any way. You also stated
As I've said, you are free to believe what you like yet you think that you know better than me what I believe. The arrogance is breathtaking! This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 10-11-2005 03:18 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've heard Mary worship discussed on similar programs, but it's true that salvation by grace is the main issue Protestants have with the RC Church.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 04:50 PM
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3731 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
SOME people may worship Mary, but the important word is SOME!!! Moreover, as I've pointed out, This is AGAINST what the RCC teaches about our relationship with Mary. You're making a sweeping generalisation based on some misunderstood quotes and badly researched information and a small minority of people who don't actually follow the teachings of the RCC.
Go to Mass, Faith, go and see it for yourself! Then come back and issue your Encyclical.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've been to a Mass. What would that tell me? I'm also not relying on the few things I'm able to dig up on the internet to demonstrate what I'm saying. You have to read the whole Reformation literature and other books on the subject since then, or hear it preached on, and that does not all show up on the internet. There IS plenty on the internet on the subject but most of it is by unknown preachers, which I figure would not be accepted as evidence. But it's out there and easy to find.
If you ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for you, from the Reformation Protestant point of view that is putting her in the place of God. You've pretty much said you do that, and that it is common Catholic practice. All there is to say about it is that Protestants consider that idolatry and Catholics don't.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for you, from the Reformation Protestant point of view that is putting her in the place of God. How is asking someone to interceed for you putting that person in the place of GOD?
All there is to say about it is that Protestants consider that idolatry and Catholics don't. Again, please provide some evidence for that assertion. You have yet to show it to be anything but the unfounded rantings of some bigots. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A few million Catholics simultaneously asking a mere human being now in heaven to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. Only God is capable of that. She can't hear them and if she could she couldn't answer them.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 05:24 PM
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3731 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
You say
If you ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for you.....that is putting her in the place of God. All there is to say about it is that Protestants consider that idolatry and Catholics don't. How does this fit in with what I told you about when I was a protestant. I knew as a small child that RCs didn't worship Mary. None of my Protestant friends thought it either. None of the Protestant preachers i heard believed it. So why do you? Why the heck would I read reformation literature to find out what I do as a Roman Catholic? Best source is my mind and my heart . That's where I find out what I'm doing. Do you read RC literature to find out what you personally believe? Once more, unsupported opinions of what RCs are doing doesn't cut the mustard. RCs are in the best position to know what they're doing and if you are unable to comprehend that, then there's no point in me continuing to try to knit fog.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
A few million Catholics simultaneously asking a mere human being now in heaven to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. How is asking someone to interceed with GOD, person ---> Mary ---> God, putting Mary in the place of GOD?
She can't hear them and if she could she couldn't answer them. Again, totally pointless and with no relationship to the question. Can you provide evidence that Mary cannot hear them? Where do Roman Catholics ask Mary to answer them? This message has been edited by jar, 10-10-2005 04:33 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3731 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
What's this fixation about simultaneous? Are you entering the contents of this post as evidence of "Mariolatry"?
You say
asking a mere human being now in heaven to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God Let's try this again, shall we. Are you really trying to say that God is the intermediary between man and God so man asks God to play middleman between man and God? This is gobbledegook! Can you provide evidence that Mary can't hear RCs? Can you provide evidence that she can't answer?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, there are "Protestant" churches, as I have said, that seem to have forgotten what the Reformation was all about. Also, are you sure they don't believe it or you just never heard them discuss it?
It is common knowledge that the Reformation was about rejecting all kinds of Roman Catholic unbiblical superstitions, such as the worship of saints, and Mary is one of them. You are free to disagree with them. I don't see any point in arguing this further.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Wouldn't you figure with millions of Catholics praying to Mary around the world that would be a lot of prayers for a human being to listen to and answer? It's no problem for God of course.
Trixie, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Believe as you please.
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