Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-22-2019 10:36 AM
42 online now:
AZPaul3, GDR, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (5 members, 37 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,544 Year: 3,581/19,786 Month: 576/1,087 Week: 166/212 Day: 8/25 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
67
...
12Next
Author Topic:   Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 61 of 171 (250471)
10-10-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-10-2005 3:20 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
quote:
Since I notice that you're not really answering my questions, I'll just note that you probably weren't ready to study the Scriptures.
Then you would note incorrectly. I'm always ready to study the scriptures. You still haven't provided the ones that say God reveals himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak. as you stated in Message 50. If you have explained this in detail then refer us back to the posts that support this opinion. I don't recall them.

You didn't explain what grace has to do with doubt. It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have. Plus, what scripture supports that opinion?

I have answered your questions, you just don't like my answers and I don't like dogma. If I have missed an important question that deals with this thread, then enlighten me.

Not sure why you have such a problem with my candle, but what you have shown me by your own answers is that God is determined not to allow scientific substantiation for his existence. The candle would have been a very simple form of substantiation.

You have also made it clear that it requires faith (belief without proof) before God will reveal himself.

In this whole discussion about the candle you have not shown me a god who is determined to make his prescence known to all people.

So if God's existence was scientifically substantiated, there would be no need for faith (belief without proof). There still would be faith (complete trust).

quote:
I guess I'll just conclude that the adversary did play some part in your biblical confusion.
Again you conclude wrong. I'm not confused by the Bible. It says what it says. Religion is confused.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-10-2005 3:20 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-12-2005 4:26 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 62 of 171 (250489)
10-10-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-10-2005 3:27 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

I already have explained many things in detail. What else could I say?

maybe you could show where in the scriptures you base your statement below,

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.

while you're at it maybe you could also show me how am I supposed to know that God is talking to me.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-10-2005 3:27 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by bkelly, posted 10-10-2005 5:15 PM Legend has responded
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2005 5:40 PM Legend has responded

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 171 (250506)
10-10-2005 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
10-10-2005 4:50 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
Hello Legend,
Faith has implied clearly that god speaks to him. (Speaks in the sense of providing information in some manner) I have directly asked him how he knows god is speaking to him and how god speaks to him. I have also asked him to quote anything god has told him personally.

He has not answered the question. I suspect he will not give you an answer either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 4:50 PM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 5:33 PM bkelly has responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 64 of 171 (250520)
10-10-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by bkelly
10-10-2005 5:15 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
Hi bkelly,

I'm not expecting an answer either, my question is largely rhetorical.

just makes you wonder though: if the whole thing was true, wouldn't it make more sense for the devil to be 'talking' to people in order to steer them off the path of God ?!


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by bkelly, posted 10-10-2005 5:15 PM bkelly has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2005 5:47 PM Legend has not yet responded
 Message 68 by bkelly, posted 10-10-2005 6:24 PM Legend has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 65 of 171 (250524)
10-10-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
10-10-2005 4:50 PM


OmniPresent
The scriptures that are deemed to mean omnipresence, don't really describe past, present and future. (Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:23,24). They deal with seeing though, not communicating.

They also don't describe God doing more than one thing at a time.

I don't recall a scripture that describes God as doing more than one thing at a time.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 4:50 PM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 6:07 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 66 of 171 (250525)
10-10-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Legend
10-10-2005 5:33 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
No wonder it takes so long for me to get to sleep at night with God (good inclination), Satan (evil inclination), and Jiminy Cricket (Conscience) in my head all vying for my attention!

To many personifications. :)


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 5:33 PM Legend has not yet responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 67 of 171 (250533)
10-10-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by purpledawn
10-10-2005 5:40 PM


Re: OmniPresent
yes you're quite right, the references are of an omnipresent observer not a communicator.

I'm sure Mr Ex will enlighten us.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2005 5:40 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 171 (250543)
10-10-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Legend
10-10-2005 5:33 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
just makes you wonder though: if the whole thing was true, wouldn't it make more sense for the devil to be 'talking' to people in order to steer them off the path of God ?!

Now that is an excelent thought. We should work on that. Following the general concept of this thread, we can posit that the devil shows himself, but god does not.

To other readers, if you disagree, provide EVIDENCE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Legend, posted 10-10-2005 5:33 PM Legend has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4625 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 69 of 171 (250625)
10-11-2005 2:23 AM


What? Now I've got three people to explain this to?

*sigh*

Why do you all even care what I think if you already know the answers?

Anyway, let's back-track to this...

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.

First of all, let's display a Scriptural passage which speaks of the kind of transcendent message which would be very similar to the way that God talks to us -- but in this case it is merely a human being who's voice cries out over the history of humanity...

In Hebrews 11:4 is quite clearly states:

NIV writes:

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

Now take this passage and note that the lamb (Christ) was slain from the beginning of the world.

Certainly, if Abel (who is considered a pre-figuring of Christ) still speaks to us even though he is dead, then I'd say the Lamb, who is considered Christ (who was slain from the beginning and yet is alive) speaks to us eternally.

Do the Scriptures testify to this?

I think so.

As another famous passage notes:

NIV writes:

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.

Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

Within thie same context, the psalm continues as follows:

NIV writes:

The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

Do people who do not believe in Christ understand this message?

I think so.

For example, as I've noted many times, Romans 1:20 quite clearly says:

NIV writes:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -— his eternal power and divine nature —- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Are they held responsible for this knowledge?

I think so.

NIV writes:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Please note that the requirements of the law are even written onto the hearts of gentiles, and when they obey the law they show that they know and do God's will even if they do not know God's proper name.

Or as Psalm 40:8 states:

NIV writes:

I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.

Who searxhes the hearts of all people?

In Proverbs 20:27 it quite plainly states:

NIV writes:

The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man ; it searches out his inmost being.

Or, as Psalm 7:9 states:

NIV writes:

O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.

And, as noted bfore, God is clearly calling all people...

For example, in Psalm 117:1

NIV writes:

Praise the LORD, all you nations; extol him, all you peoples.

Indeed, God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, as mentioned directly in Timothy 2:3-4.

He often even uses angels to transmit these messages.

Romans 10:18 asks: "Did they not hear?"

Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

In short, he's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.

Understand?


Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Legend, posted 10-11-2005 7:54 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded
 Message 71 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2005 8:35 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

    
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 70 of 171 (250686)
10-11-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-11-2005 2:23 AM


Psalm 19, that you quoted, celebrates the creation that reveals God.

"The heavens declare........the skies proclaim ....

quote:
The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.


How does that -or anywhere else in Psalm 19- allude that God is 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??

quote:
Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -— his eternal power and divine nature —- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (emphasis is mine).

this again says that God can be seen in creation - what's this got to do with God 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??

quote:
Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead"

The whole of Hebrews 11 is about faith - this verse says because Abel's sacrifice was offered in faith, while Cain's was not, Abel is saved, he's a member of the 'hall of faith' (v.13) that's why he still speaks with his faith.

So what's this got to do with God 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-11-2005 2:23 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 71 of 171 (250701)
10-11-2005 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-11-2005 2:23 AM


Not Literal Communication
quote:
Why do you all even care what I think if you already know the answers?
Because it is difficult to understand your point without knowing what you think.
Now I understand. I disagree, but I understand.

quote:
Now take this passage and note that the lamb (Christ) was slain from the beginning of the world.

Certainly, if Abel (who is considered a pre-figuring of Christ) still speaks to us even though he is dead, then I'd say the Lamb, who is considered Christ (who was slain from the beginning and yet is alive) speaks to us eternally.


This is not literal communication.

The story of Cain and Abel is meant to teach and therefore would "speak" through the ages, but not literally and not to everyone or every timeframe simultaneously. The actual teachings of Jesus could "speak" through the ages, but not literally and not to everyone or every timeframe simultaneously.

The prefiguring concept is tradition and IMO, not Biblical.

quote:
Psalms...Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge. ...
The Psalms are songs or poems. Again these passages are not speaking of literal communication. The sky does not speak human language.

quote:
Are they held responsible for this knowledge?
What knowledge do you feel Paul is talking about? IMO, he talking about the knowledge that the Jewish God is real and the other Gods are not.

quote:
In short, he's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.
These passages speak of nature or that which is created as examples of God's divine power and eternal quality, not literal communication over several timeframes at once. Nature may be there for all generations to see, but only year by year.

I always found it fascinating that Christianity, in general, views nature as God's example of his eternal power and divine nature and yet they strive to overpower or conquer it.

Take care


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-11-2005 2:23 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4625 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 72 of 171 (250830)
10-11-2005 2:01 PM


You both have apparently have not read this...
purpledawn writes:

Now I understand. I disagree, but I understand.

No, actually, you don't understand.

And, Legend, you're wrong too, at least according to Romans, that this is not a literal communication. It is a literal communication in the Christian Scriptures.

For example, you noted that Psalm 19 strictly celebrates the creation that reveals God. However Romans quotes this exact same passage within the context of hearing a message from God -- and being held accountable for hearing that message...

Observe...

Romans 10: 14-15 NIV writes:


How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

And how can they preach unless they are sent?

note writes:

See how the author is leading the reader up with the exact same questions that you are both directing to me -- how can people hear God if the message is not spoken to them?

The author then rejoices with a brief phrase of praise as follows...

As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

note writes:

The author then goes on to explain in detail how this works. He first starts off noting that not all people who hear actually accept the good news.

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

note writes:

How is the message heard?

The message is heard through the word of Christ, correct?

I will repeat this so that you catch this part...

The message is heard through the word of Christ.

Then the author asks the following question...

But I ask: Did they not hear?

note writes:

To this the author notes

Of course they did:

note writes:

I will repeat this part too...

Of course they did:

note writes:

And what is the "proof text" that the author uses to validate the fact that they did hear?

I see a quote from Psalm 19 here...

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

note writes:

Legend, you asked:

Legend writes:

How does that -or anywhere else in Psalm 19- allude that God is 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??

How do you think the author in Romans is alluding that God is 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak'?

And, for that matter, do you honestly really care?

But let's continue with the discussion noted in this Romans passage...

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand?

First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

And Isaiah boldly says,

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Consequently, when we retrace back to Romans 1, we read the following:

NIV writes:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -— his eternal power and divine nature -— have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and beautiful purple candles.

A strict reading of the Romans passage where Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 does seem to have a universal application to it: he's saying that the Israelites have no excuse for not hearing because "the message is heard through the word of Christ" because "their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

If this is applying only to the Israelites of the 1st Century, then poetic words seem to be stretched to their limits by implying that the Israelites' message has emcompassed the entire world well before the beginning of the 2nd Century. Many parts of the world today have never heard the Gospel as preached strictly through Christian missionary activity, yet Paul seems to be asserting that the word of Christ has already been heard around the world before the end of the 1st Century -- which I find odd.

Consequently, I've had this debate before with Faith before -- she apparently agrees with you both...

This was my response to her...

requote writes:


Requote from this thread...

Faith writes:

But he could have died and been resurrected and NOBODY KNOW A THING ABOUT IT and the purpose would have been accomplished according to the way you and jar talk about it. Salvation in your view does not depend upon anybody's knowing anything about Christ.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

No, that's not what I've said at all. I've said that many can know the concept of Christ and confess their belief in him by the Holy Spirit moving them to do so. Therefore, if salvation is found in a person, it is because Christ is at work in them and saving them.

WITHOUT THEIR KNOWING HIM. By claiming they can know him without knowing anythign about him you are playing semantic tricks.

First of all, as I've said before, the Scriptures do indicate that all people know the word of God even if they do not acknowledge it (or know that Christ is the source).

You quoted the following passage of Scripture as the proof text of your assertion:

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Romans 10:14-15

However, in quoting this text, you completely omitted what Paul says further on. Paul explains this in detail as follows:

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

But I ask: Did they not hear?

Of course they did:

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand?

First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

And Isaiah boldly says,

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k]

But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Romans 10: 16-21

Let's review what is being said here.

Paul says, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Then Paul asks, "Did they not hear?"

To this Paul then asserts that they did hear the message through the word of Christ.

And how does Paul say that they heard the message through the word of Christ?

Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 as a proof text as follows, "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

In other words, the word of Christ has gone out into all the earth, the words of Christ to the ends of the world -- so there is no excuse for not believing in God just as Paul said before in Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Going back to the entire text of Psalm 19:1-4 (which also follows this exact same reasoning) one can reasonably say that Paul has concluded that:

The heavens declare the word of Christ;
the skies proclaim the word of Christ.

Day after day they pour forth the word of Christ;
night after night they display the word of Christ.

There is no speech or language
where the word of Christ is not heard.

The word of Christ goes out into all the earth,
the word of Christ to the ends of the world.

I've already addressed this passage before and all you said was that I've misunderstood it, or interpretted it improperly, or was perhaps spiritually deluded, or maybe even suffering from demonic possession (as you've alluded before to others who do not agree with you).

Furthermore, the Scriptures do indicate that those that do not know Christ "by name" nonetheless still believe in him by their actions:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Romans 2:13-15 (NIV)

You've never actually addressed this passage except to say that these people who are considered righteous will "earn" a less hot place in hell.

~ yay ~

Faith, all that I'm saying is that Christ knows them -- and that this is more important than us knowing Christ.

Faith writes:


Salvation would be given to those who did good works based on his resurrection whether anybody believed or not or knew anything about it.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

And again, you're not understanding what I've said. I'm saying that if salvation is found in them, it is because they do know Christ -- even though they do not know his name.

YES, which is not KNOWING him, just a phony baloney bit of legerdemain.

No. Salvation would be given to anyone that the Spirit revealed would have believed if the message had been properly given to them. Consequently, when we see people expressing remorse for doing something that God calls "sin" -- even though they apparently don't know God -- many are compelled to think that these kinds of people would have been open to the message of salvation if it had been fairly presented to them.

In particular, I beleive that Christ, who is by the Scriptures own admission omnipotent in his glorified state, could examine the hearts and minds of any person to see how they "would have acted" if the situation were different.

I personally do not beleive this to be a vague statement which bears no resemblance to the various Judeo-Christian schools of thought. For example, the Scriptures themselves seem to disply a very similar message as follows in Hebrews 4:12-14:

NIV writes:


For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. As such, it seems to me that God could easily observe the multitude of different possibilities that lay before each individual human being and make it as if were something that actually happened and we could be held accountable for.

Or, as the Scriptures again say in Romans 4:17:

NIV writes:


As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed?the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

In this sense, it seems to me that God is capable of determining the faith that one would have had "as though they were" placed in the right cicumstances.

Consequently, when we look around the world, we do see glimpses of the gospel message everywhere -- even in nature whenever animals engage in traits of self-sacrifice in order to continue their own species.

Faith writes:

But whatever YOU mean about it obviously *I* don't mean that.

I know what you mean Faith -- and I don't agree with it. But I've never said that you're wrong though -- I simply pointed out contradictions in your thinking and suggested that "I think" you are wrong in regards to some of your conclusions. This is to say, I've always held that what you're suggesting is one possible meaning of it, one that might actuially be true.

But you seem to be incapable of even thinking that you could even possibly be wrong -- and quite comfortable in comdemning others in the process of asserting your own views.

Faith writes:

My point is that BY YOUR STANDARDS there is no point in ANYBODY's EVER knowing what the Bible says about Christ, no need to preach it, no need even to mention him, no need for it to have been taken notice of by anyone at all that He died and resurrected.

That's not true. And I've already explained why this wasn't true. By my standards Christ is the Savior and our knowledge of him when lovingly moved by the Spirit is a guarantee to salvation.

Others, however, know what the truth is but do not realize where the truth comes from. As they grope about in the darkness, they can easilly get discouraged by their inability to find the source of their truth. They can become led astray by seducing spirits because they have no sure word of the Scriptures to compare the truth of God's record. I've never denied that the Scriptures are the most sure word of God's revelation to man.

Faith writes:

If anyone can be saved simply because it happened without their knowing that it happened then there's no need for ANYONE to know it happened or for the Bible ever to have been written.

Does this sound unfair to you?

I tend to think that when a Christian is authentically called by God, they are called in such a way that their refusal to comply is damnable in the eyes of God.

In other words, we Christians are going to be judged more strictly than those who do not know God.

Consequently, there are passages of Scripture which seem to indicate this exact thing -- that those who know better will be judged more strictly:


Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

James 3:1 (NIV)

Faith writes:

In other words there's no distinction between being a believer in Christ and being a total atheist by your standards.

That's total bs Faith.

A believer in Christ knows who their redeemer is. We know where we are going after our death. We know that God loves us. We are able to share this love to others and pull them from the darkness.

An atheist knows there is material. They don't know, however, where they are going after they're death -- many seem to think that we cease to exist. They know what love is just like us, but they don't know where the love comes from. They are able to share love to others (and maybe even pull them from the darkness) but they can never be truly sure if their actions are anything more than a purely naturalistic process.

This is surely a recipe for falling away from God don't you think?

Faith writes:

Or jar's.

Well...I'll let jar defend himself. He seems to be doing a good job of this on his own in my opinion. That doesn't mean that I think jar is a genius just because he agrees with me -- although I do deeply respect the effort that he's gone to explain his position and can identify with many points he's made. I don't consider myself particularly smart anayway (and I'm certainly not a genius by any stretch), and I'm sure there's many areas where we disagree in some theological circles.

Faith writes:

The Bible however is adamant that the gospel is to be PREACHED.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Yes. And I've never said it wasn't adamant about this.

You are being awfully coy.

Or, maybe you're starting to realize that I've been pointing to an extremely valid alternative to your theological views.

Faith writes:

Is it possible you can't understand what I'm saying here? If it is to be preached, you need to explain WHY it needs to be preached, what's the point, why bother, if as you say nobody needs to know Word One about it in order to be saved through Christ?????

I've never said that either Faith. I've always maintained that God judges in proportion that which is revealed to each individual. I kind of agree with jar when he says that Christians have a higher bar for entry into heaven than others do.

Just as a baby could not be held accountable for their actions until they came to an age where they could understand instructions given to them, people who have never heard the fullness of the word of God as carefully described in the Christian Scriptures could not be fairly held accountable until such a time as the fullness of the revelation were carefully and lovingly explained to them by Christians.

Faith writes:


What's the point of the preaching if people are saved without hearing the gospel?

Because we've been called by God to do so. Because it's the truth.

It's the same point as it's always been, to lead people to repentance in Christ -- because people are not saved without hearing the gospel. While I maintain that the word of Christ can be perceived in many areas of nature and religions outside the Christian Scriptures, we as Christians have the fullness of truth -- so there is no excuse for us to not preach Christ's word.

In other words, just as at the most basic theistic level there is enough evidence in nature to prove God exists, at the most basic Christian level there is enough evidence in Scriptures to prove that Christ is God -- and the Spirit leads us to preach this truth to all who are willing to listen.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

I never said they couldn't be saved without knowing the gospel. I've said that they can know the gospel, however dimly, from other sources outside the Christian faith.

Faith writes:

Obviously Mr Ex, I'm talking about having HEARD IT, UNDERSTANDING what's WRITTEN, knowing the BIBLICAL report of Christ. "Knowing the gospel" in YOUR sense MEANS that NOBODY ON EARTH NEEDS TO KNOW IT AS IT IS WRITTEN. SO YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY GOD BOTHERED TO SAY IT IS TO BE PREACHED, AND WHY ANYBODY BOTHERS TO PREACH IT, AND WHY THE WRITTEN REPORTS ARE OF ANY VALUE WHATEVER, since according to you there is no reason whatever for any of that.

What are you not understanding here?

Just because one can be saved without knowledge of Christ directly from the Christian Scriptures, this doesn't mean that ALL PEOPLE who have not heard the Christian Scriptures are going to heaven.

I'm not talking about universal salvation Faith. I do believe that many people who do not believe in Christ (by your definition) will still sadly be going to hell. My point is that Christ is capable of saving those that do not know he is the savior even though they acknowledge him by their actions.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

As far as preaching is concerned, God calls us to do it because there is a very real danger in other faiths and worldly systems of falling away to the point that they no longer know God anymore -- to the point that their consciences are simply dead to God's call. Those that uphold the gospel are effectively immune to this falling away so long as they are attentive to the Holy Spirit -- but, even then, there are exceptions to the rule if they persistently ignore the Holy Spirit.

Faith writes:

And how does preaching the gospel stop people of other religions from falling away?

By leading them to Christ. How else do you think it does it?

Faith writes:

Are you saying that those of us who DO hear the gospel have an advantage then? Please develop this point if so.

Yes and no.

To quote Spider-Man's uncle, "With great power comes great responsibility." I've already aluded to the fact that the Scriptures say that we Christians will be judged more strictly than others. In this sense, we are to always be one guard and watching out for things.

I think that the true knowledge of God is perhaps the most potentially dangerous and volatile power ever brought forth by him. When placed in the wrong hands, the knowledge of God can result in the most terrible calamities ever imagined.

I know that others will laugh at me, but I do believe that there will be a literal anti-chirst walking the face of the earth some day. In this regard, I think he will probably claim to be a Christian of some sort -- and will highly abuse his God-given authority. Like the adversary, Balaam, and Judas Iscariot, he will probably be one who is very close to God but will rebel against him and do the utmost damage that one can think of in the name of God.

All these above points are exanples of disadvantages.

I'll adress some of the advantages below.

Faith writes:

What good does it do if Jesus "preached the clear message of God" without common errors, as you say, if nobody needs to know that message or believe it in order to be saved?

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Because it is the truth Faith. God wants us to know his son in whom he is pleased. Jesus is the perfect way to the father -- he is true God and true man -- and there is no other way to the Father except by Christ.

But if people can be saved by Christ without ever knowing any of this about Christ there is no reason for anybody to know it at all. There is no special advantage for those who know it. Might as well not bother if we'll be saved or damned with or without knowing it.

First of all, there are plenty of special advantages to being a Christian.

Here's a few that are mentioned in the Scriptures:

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

More importantly, we are permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit as Christians -- so long as we are alive. This is much different from others who are simply buffetted around between the motions of the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the adversary, the flesh and the world. While God can certainly work through someone who does not know him, it is no guarantee that salvation is inherrited by this. God could measure their lives at the end of human history and still save them based on their willingness to be moved by the Spirit, but non-believers are not necessarilly atracted to the motions of the Spirit.

I suppose I look at it this way. When certain materials are shocked, they become magnetized and will align themselves to local manetic fields quite easilly. Similarly, when a Christian is baptized they easilly align themselves to the motion of the Holy Spirit.

Now, in the case of a non-beleiver, let's say they were not "born again" in Christ. They've never been "magnetizied" by the Holy Spirit so that they can easilly align themselves to God's will. As such, this doesn't mean that they can't align themselves to the pull of the Holy Spirit. If God uses a powerful enough "magnet", they will still be pulled along by God -- they could even be fortunate enough to "aware" to the magnetic field even though they are not attacted to it. But, having said this, they will tend to resist the more natural attraction that God normally employs.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Besides that, I've always upheld that it was one's belief in Christ that reveals Christ's manifestation of salvation in their lives -- even if they don't know Christ by name.

Faith writes:

Yes you say that but that is not what the Bible says.

In you opinion I will add.

Faith writes:

It's plain nonsensical to claim that someone believes in someone whose name they don't even know. And again, if that's "belief" that saves, what's the point of having a real belief in the Christ we know by name?

Because he is real and he wants to talk to us. He is deeply interested in what we think -- and how we feel.

I also think that God cannot see evil when in heaven, so he became both true God and true Man in order to come down and experience everything we do so that he could save us.


Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -? yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (NIV)

In other words, Christ came down so that he could sympathize with us and make an appeal for us before the father in heaven. His human nature was able to perceive the "sin" that God "in heaven" was incapable of looking upon -- even though his Godly soul was unable to be overcome by death. Christ was, in effect, tempted in every way, just as we are -? and yet was without sin. In dying, he took on our sins on his "human" body and then "sacrificed" himself by experiencing a torturous death so that his "Godly" soul could then overcome death.

Faith writes:


And if the necessary revelation for salvation is already given in nature, as you've argued elsewhere, there was no need for him to come at all despite your insistence on the value of his life and resurrection.

Because many people do not grasp it Faith. Whether because their senses are dimmed, or because they are simply blind to God's presense, it's too subliminal for some to grasp anymore. So God came in person to make this clear.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Yes. And the value of his life and resurrection is the ultimate source of our salvation. I accept that you don't agree with my point of view. However, I don't understand why you have to distort what I've said so as to make it look like I'm saying that Christ's death and return from the dead is irrelevent to my theology.

Faith writes:

I'm not saying YOU are saying that, I'm saying that is the logical inference from what you are saying. You don't seem to have noticed that the WRITTEN REPORTS about his death and resurrection are irrelevant given what you believe. Given what you believe there is no value whatever to anybody's KNOWING any of the reality of the life and death of Jesus, ever hearing it preached etc, since we will all be saved or damned ANYWAY, saved on the basis of the resurrection whether we know about it or not, damned on the basis of our works not meeting some standard or other we'll never be able to grasp.


Do you understand what I'm saying now?


Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -? yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (NIV)

In other words, Christ came down so that he could sympathize with us and make an appeal for us before the father in heaven. His human nature was able to perceive the "sin" that God "in heaven" was incapable of looking upon -- even though his Godly soul was unable to be overcome by death. Christ was, in effect, tempted in every way, just as we are -? and yet was without sin. In dying, he took on our sins on his "human" body and then "sacrificed" himself by experiencing a torturous death so that his "Godly" soul could then overcome death.

The Scriptures further emphasize this as follows:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Ephesians 2:14-16 (NIV)

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Everything I've said points toward Christ's redeeming us on the cross -- and that there is no other way for humanity to gain access to the father except by this.

Faith writes:

But I am focusing on our KNOWING ABOUT THE REDEMPTION OR NOT. Your view implies that NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT so I don't see why the Christian Church has always made such a big deal about preaching it if it doesn't matter if anyone knows about it.

No. You're focussing on the passages that imply that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ are sufficiently damned. :(

Faith writes:


No my interpretation of scripture is not wrong. Yours is.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

More sweeping statements eh?

Gee -- this sounds like something coming out of the mouth of a first grade child, "I'm right and you're wrong...nah nah nah!". I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you saying, "I'm right and your wrong" 20 times over and over again because it accomplishes nothing.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

I've already agreed to disagree with you Faith. It's your insistence that you've somehow "won the debate" which cause the Spirit to flare up in me and prompts me to respond further to your responses.

That aint the Spirit, that's your ego.

You're the one claiming that God only listens to you and Christians that think like you. Who has the issues with their ego Faith?

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

See, I don't claim to have won anything. All's that I've presented is an what I believe to be a very valid alternative to your interpretation -- and to this extent I believe I've succeeded in doing so.

However, your response is usually something like, "I'm right...and everyone else who disagrees with me is wrong." I don't claim to be the absolute source of truth like you do. I've only responded as I felt the Spirit led me to do so. Whether I'm right or wrong -- ultimately -- Christ will be the judge. Not you.

Faith writes:

You say you're right, I say I'm right. I don't see the difference myself. That's life. Of course Christ will judge.

No. I say that you might be right. But that I think you are wrong.

You say that no one but you (and people who agree with you) are right -- period.

Don't try to claim that there is no difference between my views and yours Faith. There's a big difference between them.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 07:48 PM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 08:00 PM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-11-2005 02:02 PM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-11-2005 03:15 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Legend, posted 10-12-2005 9:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4625 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 73 of 171 (251032)
10-12-2005 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by purpledawn
10-10-2005 4:10 PM


Re: The Purple Candle
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:


Since I notice that you're not really answering my questions, I'll just note that you probably weren't ready to study the Scriptures.

purpledawn writes:

Then you would note incorrectly.

In your opinion, correct?

Just like I'm stating my opinion -- because if one "concludes" anything it's still only their opinion, correct?

And you're saying that I'm making sweeping statement?

purpledawn writes:

I'm always ready to study the scriptures.

Most people in grade primary are indead ready to begin to learn to read. But they wouldn't be ready to read mature subject material such as poetry and prose. They might be able to read the words, but their maturity level would most likely not properly put together the nuances and sublime meanings that are conveyed in the works. In fact, although there are exceptions to this rule, they'd most likely probably get quite confused trying to explain it to someone else.

purpledawn writes:

You still haven't provided the ones that say God reveals himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak.

I have now -- and I'll be waiting for your response in detail.

purpledawn writes:

If you have explained this in detail then refer us back to the posts that support this opinion. I don't recall them.

Are you even reading what I have to say -- or are you paying too much attention to your candle?

Actually, I already requoted this information in message 4 of this very thread.

purpledawn writes:

You didn't explain what grace has to do with doubt.

What do you think grace has to do with doubt?

You have 40 years of religious studies under your belt and you don't know what I mean when I say that?

purpledawn writes:

It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have.

Hmmm...my apologies. I just noticed the typo (here...I'll fix it).

It should have said, "It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry you through whatever doubts you might have."

purpledawn writes:

Plus, what scripture supports that opinion?

I've quoted them for you already. Read my above post.

purpledawn writes:

I have answered your questions...

No, you haven't.


purpledawn writes:

If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Look. The point that I'm trying to get across is that, according to the Scriptures, there was a time when God appeared quite blatently in a pillar of fire and a cloud -- and actually led the Israelites in a way that was so visible that no one who "saw" it could deny that God was there.

Even still, many didn't believe in him. Raw evidence of God's existence does not guarantee belief in him. If this is so, then I see no reason why he would hide in order to generate faith -- since that would simply make belief in him that much harder.

Do you understand what I'm saying?


Question 1) Do you understand what I'm saying purpledawn?

Question 2} If raw evidence of his existence does not guarantee belief in him, then why on earth would he, an apparently all-loving God, chose to make things all the more difficult by hiding from those he loves?

I'm sorry. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And, as I've tried to point out several times, I don't think that those who do hold this view have really thought it through well enough.

I will note that you've never given me a detailed answer on this so I will ask it again and with more clarification:

Question 3) How can this God you've presented here be reconciled with a loving God who is aware of everything and apparently desires all people to be saved and come to a knoweldge of the truth?

Second of all, when you insisted that the Christian God could possibly be hiding in order to generate faith, I expressed my opinion that I thought this was an extremely invalid idea because it conflicted with the idea of God being a loving God.

I even listed three alternative possibilities as to why God might hide. I then went to the Scriptures and demonstrated these three alternative reasons concisely.

During this part of the message I even asked you some questions in order to get your opinion.

I will now repeat that information here...

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:


I've never said that God doesn't hide himself. I've even suggested some reasons, in my opinion, why God might really hide.

One of these reasons, if I recall correctly, was the possibility of God destroying men by his presence -- and that he might hide in order to protect us from his own awesome presence.

Another of those reasons, in my opinion, is that God hides his face when people sin -- or that God simply cannot look upon the face of sin.

Yet, in another area, I think that God might hide his intentions so that perverse evil people do not distort the knowedge he has to offer about himself or his will -- again, in my opinion.

Bible writes:

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Well..how about we look for passages which actually discuss why God might himself (or his intentions for that matter).

For example, there's this:

NIV writes:

Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."

Question 4) Why would God want to hide this information from Abraham?

Another passage of Scripture says the following:

NIV writes:

On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

Here's another one:

NIV writes:

"I will hide my face from them," he said,
"and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.

They made me jealous by what is no god
and angered me with their worthless idols.
I will make them envious by those who are not a people;
I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and its harvests
and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

Question 5) Why is God hiding here -- and who is he protecting by doing so?

Job 13:24 asks, "Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?"

Psalm 10:1 asks, "Why, O LORD, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?"

Another passage says:

NIV writes:

How great is your goodness,
which you have stored up for those who fear you,
which you bestow in the sight of men
on those who take refuge in you.

In the shelter of your presence you hide them
from the intrigues of men;
in your dwelling you keep them safe
from accusing tongues.

Praise be to the LORD,
for he showed his wonderful love to me
when I was in a besieged city.

Question 6) Why is God hiding others?

Psalm 44:24 asks. "Why do you hide your face and forget our misery and oppression?"

Psalm 104:29 goes so far as to state, "When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust."

I could also point to Psalm 88:14, Psalm 89:46, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 102:2, Psalm 143:7, or even Micah 3:4 which states, "Then they will cry out to the LORD, but he will not answer them. At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done."

Question 7) Again, why is God hiding here?

Look, I've just looked through the passages which talk about God hiding.

First of all, I think they're using the idea of God hiding as a metaphor for humanity being in big trouble.

Second of all, not once does it mention the idea of God hiding so as to generate a desire in others to seek him out.

purpledawn writes:

...you just don't like my answers...

You are correct about me not liking your answers -- just like I didn't like some of Faith's answers either. But that doesn't mean I'm sticking my thumb in the air going, "N'yah! N'yah!"

I don't like some of your answers because it does not jive with my understanding of the Judeo-Christian God. The questions I've asked you were specifically asked so as to get you thinking about the assumptions your making in stating that it's reasobale for an all-loving God to hide himself in order to generate faith in himself.

It just seems like a bogus idea to me -- and I'm calling you on it.

purpledawn writes:

...and I don't like dogma.

Question 8) Should I really care?

purpledawn writes:

If I have missed an important question that deals with this thread, then enlighten me.

I've restated and added further questions above. However, I think you've missed a lot of stuff over the last 40 years if you're still waiting for God to light a candle that you can light yourself.

purpledawn writes:

Not sure why you have such a problem with my candle, but what you have shown me by your own answers is that God is determined not to allow scientific substantiation for his existence.

Yeah, and you ignored entire chunks of my message in order to arrive at that conclusion.

Question 9) Now who's making the sweeping statements purpledawn?

purpledawn writes:

The candle would have been a very simple form of substantiation.

So would you going over and lighting the candle yourself in order to pray to God in silence and peace.

purpledawn writes:

You have also made it clear that it requires faith (belief without proof) before God will reveal himself.

I've explained this fairly clearly why I believe the Scriptures testify that everyone can hear God -- and that only those who trust what he says actually follow through on what he says in order to do his will.

purpledawn writes:

In this whole discussion about the candle you have not shown me a god who is determined to make his prescence known to all people.

There's a rather large message just above this one -- just in case you'd like to respond to it.

purpledawn writes:

So if God's existence was scientifically substantiated, there would be no need for faith (belief without proof). There still would be faith (complete trust).

Yes, and in every miracle that you pointed out in the Scriptures, I also pointed out that everyone who asked for God to do something also knew that he existed. I also pointed out that what was was asked for was impossible for a human being to achieve.

You're doing the opposite in both cases.

I will note that you seemed to change your story. Prior to that you were asking God to light the candle to prove that he exists. From message 53 and on you claim you were asking God to light the candle to prove that the tenets of Christianuty are correct.

Being specific, your question was apparently, "Are the tenets of Christianity true?"

However, neither Moses, Elijah or Gideon doubted that the tenets of their Jewish faith were true.

Even in the case of Gideon, although he was in doubt of God calling him to do this major task, he still never doubted the purpouse of his own faith. He was only doubting which course he should take within his faith -- not whether he should leave it or not.

purpledawn writes:

Now that I have my Christian Bluegrass CD in, I will see if I can explain. Where to start?

I'm actually listening to Metallica (Sandman) -- but I don't think that's really too important.

Question 10) Do you think it's important that I'm listening to Metallica?

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:


I guess I'll just conclude that the adversary did play some part in your biblical confusion.

purpledawn writes:

Again you conclude wrong.

Question 12) In your opinion, correct?

Dang, I forgot question 11! oy vey!

purpledawn writes:

I'm not confused by the Bible. It says what it says. Religion is confused.

Question 13) Wasn't Jiminy Cricket part of the conundrum too? :confused:

By the way, there's one other question that you did not answer. I stand corrected actually -- since, technically, you did answer it already.

Remember before -- when I asked:

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will?

You answered:

purpledawn writes:

Yes, if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists.

As I said before, you're undermining the question I asked by placing the qualifier "if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists..." -- but that's not what I asked is it?

Question 14) My simple question is still the following:

Do you honestly believe your beautiful purple candle will light spontaniously by God's will, yes or no?

I think in the back of your mind you've always felt that religion was invented by man -- and that God only existed in the mind. If I'm correct, then I can assure that the candle will not light.

In fact, I'm fairly sure that you already knew the candle would not light in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2005 4:10 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by purpledawn, posted 10-12-2005 8:37 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 74 of 171 (251070)
10-12-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-12-2005 4:26 AM


Impasse Again
As usual we have reached a discussion impasse. Mainly because you seem to have difficulty separating the discussion from what you think of my beliefs or lack there of.

quote:
Question 1) Do you understand what I'm saying purpledawn?
Whether you believe it or not, I do understand what you are saying, you just seem to have difficulty continuing the discussion with me when alternate thoughts are presented.

quote:
Question 2} If raw evidence of his existence does not guarantee belief in him, then why on earth would he, an apparently all-loving God, chose to make things all the more difficult by hiding from those he loves?
I've already told you I can't answer WHY, but that the teaching is out there and I showed you that the teachings are out there. It is not my teaching. Personally, I think the teaching is an excuse for why there is no scientific evidence for the Christian God. Mystery keeps preachers in business.

quote:
It should have said, "It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry you through whatever doubts you might have."
Thank you for correcting your typo.

quote:
Question 3) How can this God you've presented here be reconciled with a loving God who is aware of everything and apparently desires all people to be saved and come to a knoweldge of the truth?
Sounds like a question that crashfrog has asked. I haven't presented any God. The God presented in the Christian Bible is all there is for this discussion.

quote:
Question 4) Why would God want to hide this information from Abraham?
I feel the Lord's question was a rhetorical question.

quote:
Question 5) Why is God hiding here -- and who is he protecting by doing so?
God "hiding his face" is different than concealing evidence of himself. Hiding his face is like punishment. It is roughly like giving someone the silent treatment.

quote:
Question 6) Why is God hiding others?
Because he wants to. I don't see how this has anything to do with the topic.

quote:
Question 7) Again, why is God hiding here?
Silent treatment again.

quote:
The questions I've asked you were specifically asked so as to get you thinking about the assumptions your making in stating that it's reasobale for an all-loving God to hide himself in order to generate faith in himself.
And what you keep missing is that I haven't claimed that it is reasonable for any god to hide himself in order to generate faith. I've said those teachings are presented by Jews and Christians and showed you examples.

quote:
I think in the back of your mind you've always felt that religion was invented by man -- and that God only existed in the mind. If I'm correct, then I can assure that the candle will not light.
So faith (belief without proof) is necessary before proof or evidence is provided.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-12-2005 4:26 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-12-2005 3:28 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 75 of 171 (251077)
10-12-2005 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-11-2005 2:01 PM


Re: You both have apparently have not read this...
Mr Ex, you've replied by quoting from here and there like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle that won't fit . Can you try to keep it tidy please, it's hard to follow.

You're using Romans 10 as your basis. Let me see if I got your argument right:

Mr. Ex Nihilo says (in a nuthsell) writes:


- Paul emphasises the necessity for preaching the gospel (v.14-15)
- Paul quotes Isaiah, who prophesied of the rejection of the gospel from Israel (v16-17)
-Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 which testifies to the fact that the word has gone forth, so Israel must have heard it. (v18)

is that the crux of your argument, more or less ?

please confirm and we'll take it from there.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-11-2005 2:01 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-12-2005 12:44 PM Legend has responded

  
Prev1234
5
67
...
12Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019