Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?

Asking a person to intercede is not putting the person in the place of God. Expecting a person who is in heaven to hear the prayers of millions day after day after day to intercede for them is putting her in the place of God. I didn't say "answer THEM" I said answer the prayers -- by interceding for them as they request.This is my last comment on this thread.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-10-2005 06:20 PM

These quotes are of knowledge that only God is capable of having. To claim that one has this knowledge is to put oneself in place of God. The ones who do this are idolizing themselves and wrongfully claiming to be God, this is perhaps the greatest sin of all. The ones who do this are the antichrists.

Oh no, Faith. You don't get to say that I can "believe as I please". It has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with facts which are uncomfortable for your position, to say the least.I don't "believe" that the RCC asks for intercession, I know it. Faith, I do it. It is a fact. Intercession is not a form of worship and you know that. You have failed totally to support your original claim that the RCC practices "Mariolatry". You have failed to support your claim that the RCC worships Mary. You have failed to support your claim that the RCC puts Mary above or equal to God. You've made a bunch of pronouncements, attempted to back them up with quotes from a well-known sectarian bigot. You can "believe" all the erroneous things you want to about the RCC, but those within the RCC know that you are dead wrong, know that you are talking so much marsh gas and know that you know it.Let's try this one more time. The RCC does not worship Mary. The teachings of the RCC make it clear that we do not worship Mary. This particular RC has never worshipped or been asked to worship Mary and I haven't seen anyone worship Mary in the way that you described. It's hard to miss people walking about on their knees around a statue!

Hi Jar,While this probably isn't totally On-Topic, I thought it is worth pointing out for further discussion: Whether or not Rev. Paisley's bigoted rants can be viewed as incitement to terrorism is probably a whole different discussion. What I feel needs to be pointed out is that the his party now holds the largest percentage of the vote in Northern Ireland and that the DUP has always (at least in my memory) been a major part of NI politics. Clearly there is something about what he says that rings true with the protestant population.Maybe there is something to be said for examining how Dr Paisley's views dovetail with Faith's...

Faith, you said in post 23 In post 25 you say Then in post 31 you say So you seem to be saying that since asking for intercession isn't putting someone in place of God, it doesn't fit your idea of idolatry since idolatry to you is putting someone in the place of God?Does this mean that you accept that the RCC does NOT practice "Mariolatry"

Trixie, I don't want to rudely end this if you think there's more to discuss but it seems to me I've said all there is to say. However, it occurred to me that maybe there are some misunderstandings I could try to clear up. Christians intercede for each other all the time, pray for each other. There is nothing wrong with the idea of intercession itself. What's wrong is asking MARY to intercede for you, because she's in heaven, she's not here.And she's a mere human being. You are expecting her to hear these requests for her to intercede with God from millions upon millions of Catholics day in and day out. That is putting her in the place of God, who alone has the power to hear the requests of millions of people simultaneously and answer them.Besides that, the idea that Jesus would pay more attention to her requests than to any of us praying to Him personally is wrong. According to scripture He is our intercessor, speaking for us to the Father all the time. He hears our prayers directly. He loves us. Mary is just a human being, another of His sheep whom He loves, among millions who have already died and are in His company, as well as millions more who are still living. But He is God and she has no special powers whatever.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 03:00 AM

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion that it is wrong to ask Mary to intercede for us, but that's not what you were actually saying in the first place. You claimed it was idolatry and that's what I had the problem with. I'm not trying to get you to agree with asking Mary to intercede, only that what RCs do is not idolatry i.e., is not worship of Mary.Whether she hears them or not is a moot point as far as this discussion is concerned. We have our own opinions of that, none of them backed by any evidence whatsoever, it's a matter of faith. However, if you now accept that asking for intercession is different from worship and you also accept that RCs request intercession, I assume that the claim of "Mariolatry" is now throroughly debunked.

Oh dear, no, I am saying that what I just described IS mariolatry, Trixie. Putting Mary in the place of God by expecting her to be able to answer requests for intercession, is a form of idolatry. That's what I believe and have been saying. It's like the peoples who bring gifts to their local gods to petition them for favors. That's part of what idolatry is, attributing powers that belong only to God to beings who have no such powers.{By Edit: Let me clarify again: It isn't intercession that is the unusual power, it's expecting her to hear and answer requests for intercession from millions of people. And considering it necessary to ask her to intercede instead of directly praying to Jesus, when scripture says Jesus is to be approached directly and personally, is part of the idolatry.}Other forms of worship of Mary, such as praying to her on one's knees, may not normally occur in the US or Britain or most of Europe, as I said on the other thread, but they certainly are practiced in many other places in the world where the RC Church is strong -- if Medjugorje --and Fatima too -- are any indication.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 03:33 AM

Oh no, Faith, Mary can't be in the place of God and interceding on our behalf - it's one or the other. If RCs were putting her in the place of God, they wouldn't be asking her to intercede with God for them. How many times does this have to be explained to you. If Mary is the intercessor, she can't be in the place of God.If I ask a colleague to intercede on my behalf with my manager, I'm not saying that my colleague is my manager, I'm not putting my colleague in the place of my manager, I'm asking my colleague to be the middleman. I suppose it's a bit like unions, but not so vociferous.By the way, you have again brought up the "worship" of Mary, yet I've still not seen any evidence from you that RCs actually worship Mary. Either produce the evidence or stop repeating the same old same old.

Aren't we forgetting the Holy Spirit here - who intercedes on our behalf too?I do wonder though what the biblical basis is for Mary interceding. As far as I know there is none. If one can step outside what the bible teaches: that God intercedes with God on our behalf then I suppose anything is possible be it intercession.idolatory etc.I do note that in the local RC church, that the statues of Mary are more elaborate, prominant and prayed at than those of
Jesus himself. Whether idolatory or not I don't know - but she seems to be a more significant intercessor of the two

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

It is ASKING Mary to intercede that is putting her in the place of God, which is idolatry. It is merely word-splitting to claim that that isn't the case because she is being asked to intercede WITH God. Of COURSE Catholics don't *believe* she is God, but they are attributing powers of God to her nevertheless. The point is that what they DO, their very act of talking to her as if she could hear them and answer them, puts her in that position and is idolatry in essence, whether they think that's what they are doing or not.Medjugorje is where the walking on knees around a statue of Mary happened that I'm aware of, but really, Trixie, this kind of treatment of Mary is pretty commonly known. Put "Kneeling praying to Mary" into Google. Here's a newspaper report on ecumenical attempts between Catholics and Anglicans that focuses on this very thing. It is said as if it were the most common practice in the world that Catholics kneel and pray to statues of Mary: Catholics don't call this worship, but it is hard for a Protestant to see how that is anything but hair-splitting denial. Worship is merely treating a person as worthy of reverence and submission. To kneel to her, pray to her (for intercession or anything else), to light candles to her statue, is what a Protestant would call worship.

Are you applying "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck..." theory here

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Yes the Holy SPirit too intercedes for us "with groanings," as scripture says. Jesus as our High Priest at the right hand of God intercedes for us by His blood.Anybody can intercede, iano. Again, that is not the problem. The problem is that Mary is in heaven and Catholics believe that they can by the millions talk to her and have her hear them. That is imputing the powers of God to her, and that is what idolatry is.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 05:08 AM

Exactly!

The difficulty with this discussion I suppose is that with RC a lot of stuff is permitted which doesn't have biblical backup (or may arguably be contra-bible). In being able to define things according to it's own authority RC can define things as it wants. If what occurs with Mary is said to be valid then valid it is - within the confines of RC - which is all that matters to RC.That there is no biblical warrant for the RC attitude to Mary is a case in point. It can quack all it likes to the outside world but that matters not.