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Author Topic:   Evolution and Specialness of Humanity
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 91 of 316 (250381)
10-10-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by joshua221
10-09-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Uniqueness
"You may know of love, but refuse to understand it's apparent use within "evolution", and how truly fake it is there." -Prophex
I hope I read you right here. Are you thinking that because it can be argued that there is no true altruism, that every loving, conciderate and caring action is derived from an evolutionary imperative to survive long enough to reproduce?
If we then become aware of this truth then we are also aware that every such action is a hollow utillitarian action with the intent of mindlessly reproducing; could we then conclude that the positive response we recieve on completion of such positive acts is also a keyed response designed to elicit more such positive action?
What I would humbly suggest is that you try this: Do someone a good deed; help someone with their shopping, open a door for an older person, or just smile at stranger. Look into their eyes and see their reaction. It's you who helped them, not god. How does it make you feel?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by joshua221, posted 10-09-2005 11:59 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:14 AM Larni has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 316 (250383)
10-10-2005 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by joshua221
10-09-2005 11:25 AM


Re: Uniqueness
Prophex, do you accept the fact that allele frequencies in populations change over time?
quote:
Would you mind explaining this?
Do you accept the following facts?:
1) Organisms reproduce.
2) The offspring are not genetically identical.
3) Not all offspring survive to reproduce.
4) Offspring who's inherited genetic traits confer an advantage to reproductive success will be more likely to have their own offspring survive to reproduce.
Do you accept the fact that all of these things happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by joshua221, posted 10-09-2005 11:25 AM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 316 (250385)
10-10-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by joshua221
10-09-2005 11:35 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
In regards to what I said, I wasn't referring to you, notice the reply info at the bottom of the post. You took it personally it seems, telling my things that you have done that have apparently fulfilled you? Raising Children, Volunteering to help the community you are in...
No, you have it wrong.
I have done some of these things, but not others.
The point is, when someone stated that one can have a very fulfilling, positive, loving life without believing in God, you replied:
quote:
Not intending to judge, but I don't see fulfillment in the things that you obviously do. Social/Economic Gain isn't on my agenda.
You seem to be making some very bigoted assumptins about the goals and values of all non-believers. You quite clearly seem to assume that all of us care only about Social/Economic gain and nothing else.
That is offensive and insulting.
quote:
Doing these things can provide fulfillment in the sense of actually looking at the effects of what you have done. But when one sees the world as many people do, a world based on survival of species, (evolutionists)
So, this is how you know all of us who accept Biological science think, is it?
Based upon the arguments from us in this thread? Is that what you are basing your notion upon?
quote:
these acts are almost fake, without significance beyond a strategy to help or advance the species.
Your selfrighteousness, arrogance and bigotry are amazing, simply breathtaking.
quote:
The love you have put effort in giving was simply part of an interaction based solely on survival, and it was not given for your feelings or for yourself, or even for the people that you may have helped, it was done for humanity, as a species within a world of millions of other species.
What a fabulous, wonderous world it is with all of those millions of species in it.
It's too bad that you are so insecure that you need to feel more important than everything else in it or else you will crumble.
quote:
For this, the way things that are meaningful, become meaningless, I don't accept the theory of evolution.
Can you please explain to me where any of this is mentioned in a Biology textbook?
Can you explain how the observed change in allele frequencies in populations over time is related to what you just wrote?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by joshua221, posted 10-09-2005 11:35 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:24 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 316 (250386)
10-10-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by joshua221
10-09-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
You may know of love, but refuse to understand it's apparent use within "evolution", and how truly fake it is there.
Why is it fake?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by joshua221, posted 10-09-2005 11:59 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Larni, posted 10-10-2005 12:15 PM nator has not replied
 Message 99 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 AM nator has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 95 of 316 (250430)
10-10-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by nator
10-10-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Uniqueness
I think Prophex has read that altruism can be seen to be simply an artefact of natural selection. I remember doing my psych degree having a question; is anything truly altruistic? We settled on the soldier diving on the grenade or giving money to a charity you hate i.e. there is zero reward.
Pro could have a valid point but it ignores the internal world of our conscious experience. We ARE driven to do socialy benficial things on a cultural scale (a culture of people who hate each other would not last long) but we chose to do good things individually because it makes us and our fellows feel good.
Maybe Pro equates this with the spirit of god? I just think it's not being a 2% psychopath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 10-10-2005 8:15 AM nator has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 316 (250611)
10-11-2005 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Annafan
10-10-2005 7:07 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
apparently this mechanism at the very least is flexible enough to allow such things as 'love' and 'altruism'.
How?

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Annafan, posted 10-10-2005 7:07 AM Annafan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Annafan, posted 10-11-2005 5:42 AM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 316 (250612)
10-11-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Larni
10-10-2005 7:52 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
It's you who helped them, not god. How does it make you feel?
You say this, with the theory of evolution assuming it is truly what happened. I gave scenario to how loveless earth would be through evolution, how meaningless. This is of course not how life is in real life.
You just gave me the embarrassing kind of goosebumps. ugh lol

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Larni, posted 10-10-2005 7:52 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Larni, posted 10-12-2005 4:00 AM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 316 (250613)
10-11-2005 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
10-10-2005 8:12 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
You seem to be making some very bigoted assumptins about the goals and values of all non-believers. You quite clearly seem to assume that all of us care only about Social/Economic gain and nothing else.
That is offensive and insulting.
You misread yet again, I said the "social/economic agenda thing" to another poster who said something about it to me. I remember the viking avatar.
quote:
That is offensive and insulting.
o
quote:
Based upon the arguments from us in this thread? Is that what you are basing your notion upon?
Common knowledge of Darwin's ideas, and how evolution evolved with discoveries. You make a lot of what I say into little personal accounts, really its about in general the mindset of evolutionists, or at least of their theory whether they realize it or not.
quote:
Your selfrighteousness, arrogance and bigotry are amazing, simply breathtaking.
I tried to give you an idea about how bad it would be if your accepted idea was actually true. Seems to have offended you, it's just evolution.
quote:
It's too bad that you are so insecure that you need to feel more important than everything else in it or else you will crumble.
Yeah, I'm in a little competition with my pets. Don't mind me.
The last 2 sentences you wrote. I'm going off of how humans are to believed to have evolved "socially", human interaction actually helps the survival of the species within evolution. I know, I don't like it either.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 10-10-2005 8:12 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Thor, posted 10-11-2005 7:41 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 106 by Nuggin, posted 10-12-2005 4:10 AM joshua221 has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 316 (250614)
10-11-2005 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by nator
10-10-2005 8:15 AM


Re: Uniqueness
I wrote
quote:
You may know of love, but refuse to understand it's apparent use within "evolution", and how truly fake it is there.
You wrote
quote:
Why is it fake?
It's intentions of care and feeling behind them, become a mechanism for survival, and is felt no farther than beyond that. That's why I called it fake. It isn't as real as it should have been or really is; because of creation rather than evo.

I am smiling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 10-10-2005 8:15 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by JustinC, posted 10-11-2005 2:43 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 104 by nator, posted 10-11-2005 2:01 PM joshua221 has replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4843 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 100 of 316 (250627)
10-11-2005 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by joshua221
10-11-2005 12:28 AM


Re: Uniqueness
quote:
It's intentions of care and feeling behind them, become a mechanism for survival, and is felt no farther than beyond that. That's why I called it fake. It isn't as real as it should have been or really is; because of creation rather than evo.
Why does it matter if the feeling we call love is the result of natural selection or was created?
Who cares if it is the result of differential reproductive success or it was created by the a whimsical fiat of a magical being? Please explain to me why the one is better than the other.
It's the same fucking feeling anyway you look at it.
This reminds me of a paper I wrote couple years ago. The question was"
"If we found out that we evolved by the mechanism of "survival of the kindest" rather than "survival of the fittest" (which was supposed to be synonomous with "survival of the selfish"), how would that affect society?"
Besides the oversimplication of evolutionary biology, the answer was quite simple. Finding out how we evolved isn't going to the change what we are. The only people it would affect are those that want to live their lives in accordance with the mechanism by which they evolved (natural is good, i.e, the naturalistic fallacy). No one really does this, so it would have very little influence at all, besides intellectual circles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by joshua221, posted 10-12-2005 7:44 PM JustinC has replied

Annafan
Member (Idle past 4578 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 101 of 316 (250661)
10-11-2005 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by joshua221
10-11-2005 12:10 AM


Re: Uniqueness
apparently this mechanism at the very least is flexible enough to allow such things as 'love' and 'altruism'.
How?
Plenty of plausible mechanisms have been suggested, but I don't think ANY of them will be able to satisfy you.
I do suggest you check out JustinC's reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:10 AM joshua221 has not replied

Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 102 of 316 (250682)
10-11-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by joshua221
10-07-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Uniqueness
Back again, I've been busy for the last few days and haven't had a chance to post
I disregarded most of your reply,
Thanks, it’s always nice to be noticed .
you took a lot of what I said out of context, or just didn't get what I was attempting to paint.
Ok, maybe I did do a bit of a rant and go a bit further than the general scope of what you’re trying to discuss. But to summarise the basic point your trying to make, it seems to be thus:
Believing in Evolution invalidates all human actions, feelings and emotions because they are nothing more than manifestations of the desire to survive as a species. They are fake and meaningless (your own words). Accepting Creation and the whole God thing is the only way there can be any purpose to one’s life.
Is this what you are trying to say? Have I read your idea correctly?
Not intending to judge, but I don't see fulfillment in the things that you obviously do. Social/Economic Gain isn't on my agenda.
You may not intend it, but can’t you see that you are judging? It’s one thing to present your view of Evolution and why you don’t accept it. Fine, you have the right to think and believe whatever you please. However, you’ve actually been telling people that what they experience is not genuine because they don’t subscribe to your worldview. You’re implying that those people and the lives they live are somehow inferior to yours. This is taking a big step across the line. You appear to be taking a moral high ground that is quite unjustified. We have an expression here in Oz for people who do such things - ”Pull your head in’.
And I wonder how I gave you the idea that I am “obviously” into social/economic gain. I certainly don’t wish to be famous, and I don’t care for greed or blatant profiteering. I like to gain respect from my close associates for my abilities and intelligence, otherwise I’m happy to keep to myself in the background. I’m not aiming for riches either. Enough to pay the bills and do the things I enjoy is all I need and want. This is hardly what I’d call social/economic gain in the sprit you seemed to be implying, I’d describe it as finding a satisfying, practical and sustainable niche in which to live. Isn't that what most of us want? And I’m hoping that your social/economic gain comment was not a blanket assumption of the motives of all evos and/or atheists, because that would just be prejudice, plain and simple. Prejudice is dangerous, it's forming an opinion without knowing any of the facts.

The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by joshua221, posted 10-07-2005 9:14 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by joshua221, posted 10-12-2005 7:52 PM Thor has not replied

Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 103 of 316 (250683)
10-11-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by joshua221
10-11-2005 12:24 AM


Re: Uniqueness
I remember the viking avatar.
Viking?? Just for the record it ain't no Viking, even though the name I use is. It is actually one of Monty Pythons 'Gumbys'. Forget about evolution, creation, spirituality and all that stuff. Without Python, my life really would be meaningless!

The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:24 AM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 316 (250829)
10-11-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by joshua221
10-11-2005 12:28 AM


Re: Uniqueness
How do you tell the difference between a real feeling of love and a fake feeling of love?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by joshua221, posted 10-12-2005 7:57 PM nator has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 105 of 316 (251028)
10-12-2005 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by joshua221
10-11-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Uniqueness
Fair enough: What is life like in real life then? Do you see nothing when other people see on love?
If you contend that people who don't believe in god can't honestly be loving, I would ask you; where is the evidence that you or people who believe in god can?
Could one not argue that your "god-inspired" love is artificially induced and that "atheist-love" is pure and generated spontaneously by the nature of the individual, unsullied by authortive direction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 10-11-2005 12:14 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by joshua221, posted 10-12-2005 8:01 PM Larni has replied

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