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Author | Topic: Evolution and Specialness of Humanity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member (Idle past 163 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
"You may know of love, but refuse to understand it's apparent use within "evolution", and how truly fake it is there." -Prophex
I hope I read you right here. Are you thinking that because it can be argued that there is no true altruism, that every loving, conciderate and caring action is derived from an evolutionary imperative to survive long enough to reproduce? If we then become aware of this truth then we are also aware that every such action is a hollow utillitarian action with the intent of mindlessly reproducing; could we then conclude that the positive response we recieve on completion of such positive acts is also a keyed response designed to elicit more such positive action? What I would humbly suggest is that you try this: Do someone a good deed; help someone with their shopping, open a door for an older person, or just smile at stranger. Look into their eyes and see their reaction. It's you who helped them, not god. How does it make you feel?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Prophex, do you accept the fact that allele frequencies in populations change over time? quote: Do you accept the following facts?: 1) Organisms reproduce. 2) The offspring are not genetically identical. 3) Not all offspring survive to reproduce. 4) Offspring who's inherited genetic traits confer an advantage to reproductive success will be more likely to have their own offspring survive to reproduce. Do you accept the fact that all of these things happen?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, you have it wrong. I have done some of these things, but not others. The point is, when someone stated that one can have a very fulfilling, positive, loving life without believing in God, you replied:
quote: You seem to be making some very bigoted assumptins about the goals and values of all non-believers. You quite clearly seem to assume that all of us care only about Social/Economic gain and nothing else. That is offensive and insulting.
quote: So, this is how you know all of us who accept Biological science think, is it? Based upon the arguments from us in this thread? Is that what you are basing your notion upon?
quote: Your selfrighteousness, arrogance and bigotry are amazing, simply breathtaking.
quote: What a fabulous, wonderous world it is with all of those millions of species in it. It's too bad that you are so insecure that you need to feel more important than everything else in it or else you will crumble.
quote: Can you please explain to me where any of this is mentioned in a Biology textbook? Can you explain how the observed change in allele frequencies in populations over time is related to what you just wrote?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why is it fake?
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Larni Member (Idle past 163 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I think Prophex has read that altruism can be seen to be simply an artefact of natural selection. I remember doing my psych degree having a question; is anything truly altruistic? We settled on the soldier diving on the grenade or giving money to a charity you hate i.e. there is zero reward.
Pro could have a valid point but it ignores the internal world of our conscious experience. We ARE driven to do socialy benficial things on a cultural scale (a culture of people who hate each other would not last long) but we chose to do good things individually because it makes us and our fellows feel good. Maybe Pro equates this with the spirit of god? I just think it's not being a 2% psychopath.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: How? I am smiling.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote:You say this, with the theory of evolution assuming it is truly what happened. I gave scenario to how loveless earth would be through evolution, how meaningless. This is of course not how life is in real life. You just gave me the embarrassing kind of goosebumps. ugh lol I am smiling.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: You misread yet again, I said the "social/economic agenda thing" to another poster who said something about it to me. I remember the viking avatar.
quote: o
quote: Common knowledge of Darwin's ideas, and how evolution evolved with discoveries. You make a lot of what I say into little personal accounts, really its about in general the mindset of evolutionists, or at least of their theory whether they realize it or not.
quote: I tried to give you an idea about how bad it would be if your accepted idea was actually true. Seems to have offended you, it's just evolution.
quote: Yeah, I'm in a little competition with my pets. Don't mind me. The last 2 sentences you wrote. I'm going off of how humans are to believed to have evolved "socially", human interaction actually helps the survival of the species within evolution. I know, I don't like it either. I am smiling.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I wrote
quote:You wrote quote: It's intentions of care and feeling behind them, become a mechanism for survival, and is felt no farther than beyond that. That's why I called it fake. It isn't as real as it should have been or really is; because of creation rather than evo. I am smiling.
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4843 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
quote:Why does it matter if the feeling we call love is the result of natural selection or was created? Who cares if it is the result of differential reproductive success or it was created by the a whimsical fiat of a magical being? Please explain to me why the one is better than the other. It's the same fucking feeling anyway you look at it. This reminds me of a paper I wrote couple years ago. The question was" "If we found out that we evolved by the mechanism of "survival of the kindest" rather than "survival of the fittest" (which was supposed to be synonomous with "survival of the selfish"), how would that affect society?" Besides the oversimplication of evolutionary biology, the answer was quite simple. Finding out how we evolved isn't going to the change what we are. The only people it would affect are those that want to live their lives in accordance with the mechanism by which they evolved (natural is good, i.e, the naturalistic fallacy). No one really does this, so it would have very little influence at all, besides intellectual circles.
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4578 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
apparently this mechanism at the very least is flexible enough to allow such things as 'love' and 'altruism'. How? Plenty of plausible mechanisms have been suggested, but I don't think ANY of them will be able to satisfy you. I do suggest you check out JustinC's reply.
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Thor Member (Idle past 5910 days) Posts: 148 From: Sydney, Australia Joined: |
Back again, I've been busy for the last few days and haven't had a chance to post
I disregarded most of your reply, Thanks, it’s always nice to be noticed .
you took a lot of what I said out of context, or just didn't get what I was attempting to paint. Ok, maybe I did do a bit of a rant and go a bit further than the general scope of what you’re trying to discuss. But to summarise the basic point your trying to make, it seems to be thus: Believing in Evolution invalidates all human actions, feelings and emotions because they are nothing more than manifestations of the desire to survive as a species. They are fake and meaningless (your own words). Accepting Creation and the whole God thing is the only way there can be any purpose to one’s life. Is this what you are trying to say? Have I read your idea correctly?
Not intending to judge, but I don't see fulfillment in the things that you obviously do. Social/Economic Gain isn't on my agenda. You may not intend it, but can’t you see that you are judging? It’s one thing to present your view of Evolution and why you don’t accept it. Fine, you have the right to think and believe whatever you please. However, you’ve actually been telling people that what they experience is not genuine because they don’t subscribe to your worldview. You’re implying that those people and the lives they live are somehow inferior to yours. This is taking a big step across the line. You appear to be taking a moral high ground that is quite unjustified. We have an expression here in Oz for people who do such things - ”Pull your head in’. And I wonder how I gave you the idea that I am “obviously” into social/economic gain. I certainly don’t wish to be famous, and I don’t care for greed or blatant profiteering. I like to gain respect from my close associates for my abilities and intelligence, otherwise I’m happy to keep to myself in the background. I’m not aiming for riches either. Enough to pay the bills and do the things I enjoy is all I need and want. This is hardly what I’d call social/economic gain in the sprit you seemed to be implying, I’d describe it as finding a satisfying, practical and sustainable niche in which to live. Isn't that what most of us want? And I’m hoping that your social/economic gain comment was not a blanket assumption of the motives of all evos and/or atheists, because that would just be prejudice, plain and simple. Prejudice is dangerous, it's forming an opinion without knowing any of the facts. The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.
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Thor Member (Idle past 5910 days) Posts: 148 From: Sydney, Australia Joined: |
I remember the viking avatar. Viking?? Just for the record it ain't no Viking, even though the name I use is. It is actually one of Monty Pythons 'Gumbys'. Forget about evolution, creation, spirituality and all that stuff. Without Python, my life really would be meaningless! The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
How do you tell the difference between a real feeling of love and a fake feeling of love?
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Larni Member (Idle past 163 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Fair enough: What is life like in real life then? Do you see nothing when other people see on love?
If you contend that people who don't believe in god can't honestly be loving, I would ask you; where is the evidence that you or people who believe in god can? Could one not argue that your "god-inspired" love is artificially induced and that "atheist-love" is pure and generated spontaneously by the nature of the individual, unsullied by authortive direction?
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