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Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 61 of 132 (250762)
10-11-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
10-11-2005 10:44 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-17-2005 09:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:44 AM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 132 (250784)
10-11-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:02 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
One little problem, Faith is not a Christian.
Oh, Faith is no doubt a Christian just as Paisley and Dobson and Phelps and Robertson and Falwell and Hinn and Jones and Scott and Wyatt and and Tilton and Roberts and Swaggart are Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:02 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 11:51 AM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 63 of 132 (250790)
10-11-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
10-11-2005 11:37 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
jar writes:
Oh, Faith is no doubt a Christian just as Paisley and Dobson and Phelps and Robertson and Falwell and Hinn and Jones and Scott and Wyatt and and Tilton and Roberts and Swaggart are Christians.
I have a reasonable appreciation of Paisleys..er...less tolerant side. Apparently though (and it surprised me) he is an excellent preacher when he gets off the political stage. Hard to believe I know. That Hinn fella does give me the heeby jeebies alright.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:37 AM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 132 (250822)
10-11-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:09 AM


No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
And she's a mere human being.
Surely Paul was a mere human being as well, but I assume that the parents of Eutycus were happy that Paul interceded?
Paul was not in heaven when he interceded, and he was not asked by a few million people at once to intercede for them either.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 01:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 10:09 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 10-11-2005 4:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 132 (250846)
10-11-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ramoss
10-11-2005 9:12 AM


No criticism allowed, huh?
One thing I have noticed is that SOME groups have a tendancy to tell other groups what they 'actually' believe. The ones that are claiming that Roman Catholics are engaging in 'Idolatry' because they are 'worshipping Mary' seem very intent on telling Roman Catholics what they believe... even though that is not what the Roman Catholics say they believe.
Well, sure, we should all be respectful of one another's personal experience and understanding of our own practices, but as a general principle what you are saying would simply eliminate all criticism of anything whatever. We'd just have to take everybody's word for whatever they tell us. There would certainly have been no Reformation. Luther wouldn't have objected to the superstitious practices of the RC Church, he would simply have accepted that what the authorities decreed is true, and not bothered to investigate the Bible which shows the untruth. You could insist that you aren't defrauding the people because you can rationalize it this way or that way, and everybody should just accept what you say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ramoss, posted 10-11-2005 9:12 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 4:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 68 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 4:26 PM Faith has replied
 Message 100 by ramoss, posted 10-11-2005 10:37 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 132 (250862)
10-11-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
10-11-2005 2:46 PM


How can you disrespect the mother of god so easily?
I'd like to see you walk down the street and talk shit 'bout someone's momma....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 2:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 4:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 132 (250866)
10-11-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 4:19 PM


She herself would be appalled at what is done in her name. She is not this goddess that the RC church has made of her. She was a simple devout Jewish girl, pure in heart, and highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, but still simply an ordinary human being. Jesus Himself makes sure that she is kept in the background in order to prevent exactly this exaltation of her that has been done by the RC Church. He constantly affirms that blood relations are not important, that those who are His true family are those who are obedient to God.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 04:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 4:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 4:39 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 6:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 68 of 132 (250867)
10-11-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
10-11-2005 2:46 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
I hoped not to have to do this, but here goes. The Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Second Vatican Council)which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI Nov, 1964 states the following in Chapter VIII;
Section III Para 61 says
There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all". The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
Section III Para 62 says
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator,(based on S. Ambrosius, Epist. 63: PL 16, 1218.) For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer
Section III Para 65 says
But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.
Section 4 Para 66 says of the Cult of the Blessed Virgin
The various forms of piety toward the Mother of God, which the Church within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful has approved, bring it about that while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all His commands are observed.
You can read extracts from the Lumen Gentium as it pertains to Mary at this site
If you feel really keen you can find the full text here, along with the references which Vatican II used to reach it's conclusions
This makes it as plain as a pikestaff that the Church doesnot consider Mary to be equal to God and that Mary in the RCC is an intercessor and is subordinate to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Now, every RC that I know and the vast majority of Protestants I've come across are well aware of all this. Just because you don't seem to know it, doesn't mean that it goes away for everyone else too.
Furthermore this is exactly how I consider the BVM, whether you think I do or not. You're opinion as to what I think bears no relation to what I actually think. I know what I think, you don't know what I think, even though I've told you often enough. How dare you tell me what my opinion is? You can freely tell me what you think my opinion ought to be, you can freely tell me what you think of my opinion, but you cannot dictate to me what my opinion is, firstly because you have no right to and secondly because you're speaking from a position of not being a mindreader!! Do you understand now?
Criticise the position, by all means, but so far the only position you have criticised is a position which doesn't actually exist in everyone else's reality. Shouting long and hard that this is the position of the RCC doesn't make it so, no matter how often you repeat it.
Edited to add;
You say
She herself would be appalled at what is done in her name
So now you claim to know the opinion of the BVM? ROTFLMAO. I'll let others comment on this before I say anymore. Sheesh!!
This message has been edited by Trixie, 10-11-2005 04:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 2:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 4:34 PM Trixie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 132 (250869)
10-11-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Trixie
10-11-2005 4:26 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
I have read a great deal of Catholic doctrine on Mary, Trixie. None of it changes a thing I have said. Simply understand what I've said. I said that Catholics don't believe she is God, but that nevertheless their actions put her in that role, and all this verbiage does not change the fact that praying to her to intercede for you is putting her in that role. She is an excellent model of a faithful worshiper of God, but being in heaven she does not have powers to hear and answer prayer by the living of any kind whatsoever, and far from powers to hear and answer the prayers of millions. You are free to view the situation as you please but you are not going to change my mind about its being idolatry.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 04:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 4:26 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 4:46 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 132 (250872)
10-11-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
10-11-2005 4:24 PM


Faith makes yet more unsupport assertions!
She is not this goddess that the RC church has made of her.
Please support your assertion that the Roman Catholic Church made Mary a Goddess or admit that once again, you're wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 4:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 71 of 132 (250874)
10-11-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
10-11-2005 4:34 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
And you know all this how, exactly? Oh, maybe you got it straight from her when she told you that she was appalled at what the RCC has done? Or is it your "humble" opinion"? Once more Faith's opinion on the RCC and it's doctrine more accurately reflects the RCC doctrine than the RCC doctrine itself.
This "verbiage" as you so dismissively call it, was my attempt to show you exactly what the RCC teaching on Mary is. However, I'm sure you know what the RCC teaching is much better than the RCC itself.
You say
You are free to view the situation as you please but you are not going to change my mind about its being idolatry
Uh huh! Why let the facts stand in the way of a good delusion!
Have I entered a parallel universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 5:55 PM Trixie has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 72 of 132 (250875)
10-11-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
10-11-2005 1:35 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
Faith writes:
Paul was not in heaven when he interceded, and he was not asked by a few million people at once to intercede for them either.
Is heaven a kind of prison, such that when you are there you lose the power to intercede with God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 1:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 10-11-2005 5:49 PM nwr has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 132 (250889)
10-11-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
10-11-2005 6:08 AM


Re: Makes me glad to be an atheist
Faith writes:
It is PRAYING TO Mary that is idolatrous, and putting her in the place of Jesus Christ, who according to scripture is our Intercessor. It is idolatry to treat her, a mere human being, as capable of hearing the prayers of millions of Catholics simultaneously.
So you are saying that if someone who should know better starts off a prayer by saying Hail Mary..it is as if they expect a dead woman to hear them?
Or are you suggesting that they may believe that she is alive, kickin it in Heaven with that other Saint of lost causes...whats his name? Jude? John Lennon wrote a song about Hey Jude....I wonder if thats the same as Hail Mary??
Jar writes:
You have been unable to supply any supporting information that Roman Catholics put Mary in the place of GOD.
But we do have information about John Lennon.
Confucious Jar writes:
What YOU believe folk do has no bearing on the reality.
Translation: What I said is NOT what you mean't.
Jar writes:
I don't disagree with the reformers, only with those who are not capable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy ..
Translation: Score: Notre Dame: 7 Elves and Hobbits: 7 We have a tie game! Will reality pull it out with a Hail Mary, or will the wise ones from Europe conjure up a potion to pull this one out?
Faith writes:
I am simply participating on this thread to answer Trixie's questions, Phat.
Hail Faith, full of Grace, .....
nwr writes:
While driving home, I sometimes listen to evangelical radio discussions.
Go on, my son. Confession is good for the soul!
Jar writes:
Can you provide evidence that Mary cannot hear them?
I can't hear the question! I've got Hey Jude turned up full blast!
Trixie writes:
This is gobbledegook!
*Blink*
I cannot believe that you said that.
This is serious discussion! Here is another piece of evidence:
StevesBeatlespage Quotes writes:
"There's a woman in the United States who predicted the plane we were traveling on would crash. Now, a lot of people would like to think we were scared into saying a prayer. What we did actually--we drank."
- Ringo Starr, 1966
"Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first, rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were think and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me.
- John Lennon, 1966
Am I off Topic Yet?
CatholicScientist writes:
These quotes are of knowledge that only God is capable of having. To claim that one has this knowledge is to put oneself in place of God. The ones who do this are idolizing themselves and wrongfully claiming to be God, this is perhaps the greatest sin of all. The ones who do this are the antichrists.
Well whoever killed John Lennon may have been worried that he was an antichrist...and so killing him was the only proper thing for a deluded man to do! *sigh!*
Faith writes:
Christians intercede for each other all the time, pray for each other. There is nothing wrong with the idea of intercession itself. What's wrong is asking MARY to intercede for you, because she's in heaven, she's not here.
Well..if Jesus is in Heaven sitting next to Dad, why not just ask Dad for help?
Faith writes:
It's like the peoples who bring gifts to their local gods to petition them for favors.
So if I were to ask Pastor Benny Hinn to heal my crippled daughter and I gave him $100.00 in good faith, would I consider him a local god?
Trixie writes:
If I ask a colleague to intercede on my behalf with my manager, I'm not saying that my colleague is my manager, I'm not putting my colleague in the place of my manager, I'm asking my colleague to be the middleman. I suppose it's a bit like unions, but not so vociferous.
Local 7 Communion. We know who our head is. We know where He/She is seated.
We are not sexist!
Both Gods "Mum" and Gods Son are in communion. Some, such as I, believe that the Son is in communion on a Monotheistic level and the Mum, Mary is in communion on a different level.
Iano writes:
Aren't we forgetting the Holy Spirit here - who intercedes on our behalf too?
How can we forget One whom we do not see? Perhaps He is the true Intercessor!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 10-11-2005 6:08 AM Brian has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 132 (250893)
10-11-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
10-11-2005 4:51 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
Is heaven a kind of prison, such that when you are there you lose the power to intercede with God?
They may in fact intercede for all God's people all the time, as we are all part of one Body after all, both living and in heaven, but again, what I've been trying to get across is that they can't hear the prayers of the living ASKING them to intercede and they certainly can't hear and respond to the prayers of MILLIONS AT ONCE. Only God can do such things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 10-11-2005 4:51 PM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:00 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 132 (250898)
10-11-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Trixie
10-11-2005 4:46 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
This "verbiage" as you so dismissively call it, was my attempt to show you exactly what the RCC teaching on Mary is. However, I'm sure you know what the RCC teaching is much better than the RCC itself.
For the purposes of this discussion I haven't claimed to know anything more than what you yourself have affirmed, that you pray to Mary to intercede with God for you. It is common sense that Mary, who is a human being in heaven, does not have omniscience and cannot hear and respond to the prayers of millions of Catholics, and to believe that she can is to impute the powers of God to her. Common sense, Trixie. If you believe that of Mary, why not believe it of any other deceased Christian? One could presumably pray to one's own mother in heaven, knowing that she would love us enough personally to pray particularly for us. In fact that would be more of a sure thing than competing with millions of other Catholics for "Mary's" ear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 4:46 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:07 PM Faith has replied

  
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