Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?

In http://EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again? -->EvC Forum: RC Church accepts evolution? again?, Faith states that the RC Church “worships” Mary and has used the term “Mariolatry”. There is also a claim that the RC Church “worships” saints.The issue turned up ages ago (with Mike the Wiz) as a side issue in another topic and, whilst dealt with, it wasn’t really examined in detail. Now the claim has turned up again, and again it is a side issue. I’ve proposed this topic to examine the issue, to look at the evidence on which the claim is based and to determine if there is any basis for the claim.To enable the discussion to proceed, I would appreciate Admin copying and pasting the original off-topic posts from above to this new topic.Edited to add - Faith/Belief is appropriate for this
Edited again to add Roman to the Catholic in the title, I don't know how this slipped by. I'm specifically talking of the claim of "worship" of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church since that was the claim that was madeCopied here from PNT by AdminBenThis message has been edited by Trixie, 10-10-2005 08:40 AMThis message has been edited by AdminBen, Monday, 2005/10/10 06:40 AMThis message has been edited by Trixie, 10-10-2005 11:25 AM

And that's the whole nub of the topic!!! Faith, you said And I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, you have failed dismally to provide any evidence to support your opinion that this is what Roman Catholics do.Your first attempt at providing evidence was When it was pointed out to you by a practicing RC that they have never seen this and never done this, your only defence was And that's your evidence - you read it in a book. When pressed further for evidence, you included a blog site and a link to a site by Rev Ian Paisley!!! Of your own source, you said yet you now say I would point out that the fact he is an antiRC bigot is very relevant in assessing the validity of his opinions on Roman Catholics!!!Just to recap, the only evidence you've provided, which you read in a book, has been shown to be totally wrong Oh, and the opinion of a man who thunders on about "idolators" and "papists" when he speaks about Roman Catholics. A man who fought tooth and nail against Roman Catholics being given equal rights in housing, employment and jobs. His opinion counts for diddlysquat.It was pointed out to you and you replied Well, considering that he was giving the official RCC line on the subject, I would say quite a bit, but authority has nothng to do with it. He's saying the same as Rome, he's saying the same as my Dean and parish priest, he's saying the same as my former Archbishop and now Cardinal. They're all saying the same thing!!! Now, some people may choose to disregard this, but you can't then say that these people represent the RCC when what they do and say is diametrically opposed to the RCC. If you discount the opinion of the RCC on the RCC position,then we're left with your opinion and your opinion alone.As for your observation You just don't get it, do you? What you think they're doing and what they're doing are two different things. You've been told from the horse's mouth exactly what Roman Catholics are doing. I know much better than you what I'm doing in the privacy of my heart and mind. Yet you presume to tell me that you have more idea of what goes on there than I do.Let me try this again. Can you provide evidence that what Roman Catholics do is worship Mary? Your one solid attempt at this (the walking on knees around statues of the BVM) has been shown to be bunkum. Try again.So, what further evidence do you have?

You say Fine, so long as we're clear that you're giving an opinion which you have no evidential support for. The next time you make the statement that the RCC is guilty of "Mariolatry", you should qualify it with the phrase since you've failed to support it in any way. You also stated yet you think that you know better than me what I believe. The arrogance is breathtaking!This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 10-11-2005 03:18 AM

SOME people may worship Mary, but the important word is SOME!!! Moreover, as I've pointed out, This is AGAINST what the RCC teaches about our relationship with Mary. You're making a sweeping generalisation based on some misunderstood quotes and badly researched information and a small minority of people who don't actually follow the teachings of the RCC.Go to Mass, Faith, go and see it for yourself! Then come back and issue your Encyclical.

You say How does this fit in with what I told you about when I was a protestant. I knew as a small child that RCs didn't worship Mary. None of my Protestant friends thought it either. None of the Protestant preachers i heard believed it. So why do you?Why the heck would I read reformation literature to find out what I do as a Roman Catholic? Best source is my mind and my heart . That's where I find out what I'm doing.Do you read RC literature to find out what you personally believe?Once more, unsupported opinions of what RCs are doing doesn't cut the mustard. RCs are in the best position to know what they're doing and if you are unable to comprehend that, then there's no point in me continuing to try to knit fog.

What's this fixation about simultaneous? Are you entering the contents of this post as evidence of "Mariolatry"?You say Let's try this again, shall we. Are you really trying to say that God is the intermediary between man and God so man asks God to play middleman between man and God? This is gobbledegook!Can you provide evidence that Mary can't hear RCs? Can you provide evidence that she can't answer?

Oh no, Faith. You don't get to say that I can "believe as I please". It has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with facts which are uncomfortable for your position, to say the least.I don't "believe" that the RCC asks for intercession, I know it. Faith, I do it. It is a fact. Intercession is not a form of worship and you know that. You have failed totally to support your original claim that the RCC practices "Mariolatry". You have failed to support your claim that the RCC worships Mary. You have failed to support your claim that the RCC puts Mary above or equal to God. You've made a bunch of pronouncements, attempted to back them up with quotes from a well-known sectarian bigot. You can "believe" all the erroneous things you want to about the RCC, but those within the RCC know that you are dead wrong, know that you are talking so much marsh gas and know that you know it.Let's try this one more time. The RCC does not worship Mary. The teachings of the RCC make it clear that we do not worship Mary. This particular RC has never worshipped or been asked to worship Mary and I haven't seen anyone worship Mary in the way that you described. It's hard to miss people walking about on their knees around a statue!

Faith, you said in post 23 In post 25 you say Then in post 31 you say So you seem to be saying that since asking for intercession isn't putting someone in place of God, it doesn't fit your idea of idolatry since idolatry to you is putting someone in the place of God?Does this mean that you accept that the RCC does NOT practice "Mariolatry"

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion that it is wrong to ask Mary to intercede for us, but that's not what you were actually saying in the first place. You claimed it was idolatry and that's what I had the problem with. I'm not trying to get you to agree with asking Mary to intercede, only that what RCs do is not idolatry i.e., is not worship of Mary.Whether she hears them or not is a moot point as far as this discussion is concerned. We have our own opinions of that, none of them backed by any evidence whatsoever, it's a matter of faith. However, if you now accept that asking for intercession is different from worship and you also accept that RCs request intercession, I assume that the claim of "Mariolatry" is now throroughly debunked.

Oh no, Faith, Mary can't be in the place of God and interceding on our behalf - it's one or the other. If RCs were putting her in the place of God, they wouldn't be asking her to intercede with God for them. How many times does this have to be explained to you. If Mary is the intercessor, she can't be in the place of God.If I ask a colleague to intercede on my behalf with my manager, I'm not saying that my colleague is my manager, I'm not putting my colleague in the place of my manager, I'm asking my colleague to be the middleman. I suppose it's a bit like unions, but not so vociferous.By the way, you have again brought up the "worship" of Mary, yet I've still not seen any evidence from you that RCs actually worship Mary. Either produce the evidence or stop repeating the same old same old.

From my point of view, Brian,there is no right way. There are many right ways. All I'm saying is that my chosen way isn't wrong because someone mistakenly thinks that I indulge in "Mariolatry".How many times are we asked in church, either Protestant or RC to pray for others,to pray for the sick? Can we say that our minister/priest/pastor/vicar/whatever is guilty of idolatry by asking us to do that? Is he holding us up as divine by asking us this? Is he holding us up as equal to God?As an aside, one of the things said in Mass is"I confess, to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do and I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virin, all the angels and saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God".We ask our fellow church members to pray for us. Hey, I worship my fellow parishoners!! At least, according to Faith, I do.Faith is perfectly free to find her own way to God, but this can be accomplished without the necessity of condemning the vast majority of humanity that don't believe in the exact same way that she does. If she's right about this, Heaven is going to be a very empty place.

I hoped not to have to do this, but here goes. The Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Second Vatican Council)which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI Nov, 1964 states the following in Chapter VIII;Section III Para 61 says Section III Para 62 says Section III Para 65 says Section 4 Para 66 says of the Cult of the Blessed Virgin You can read extracts from the Lumen Gentium as it pertains to Mary at this site If you feel really keen you can find the full text here, along with the references which Vatican II used to reach it's conclusions This makes it as plain as a pikestaff that the Church doesnot consider Mary to be equal to God and that Mary in the RCC is an intercessor and is subordinate to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.Now, every RC that I know and the vast majority of Protestants I've come across are well aware of all this. Just because you don't seem to know it, doesn't mean that it goes away for everyone else too.Furthermore this is exactly how I consider the BVM, whether you think I do or not. You're opinion as to what I think bears no relation to what I actually think. I know what I think, you don't know what I think, even though I've told you often enough. How dare you tell me what my opinion is? You can freely tell me what you think my opinion ought to be, you can freely tell me what you think of my opinion, but you cannot dictate to me what my opinion is, firstly because you have no right to and secondly because you're speaking from a position of not being a mindreader!! Do you understand now?Criticise the position, by all means, but so far the only position you have criticised is a position which doesn't actually exist in everyone else's reality. Shouting long and hard that this is the position of the RCC doesn't make it so, no matter how often you repeat it.Edited to add;You say So now you claim to know the opinion of the BVM? ROTFLMAO. I'll let others comment on this before I say anymore. Sheesh!!This message has been edited by Trixie, 10-11-2005 04:31 PM

And you know all this how, exactly? Oh, maybe you got it straight from her when she told you that she was appalled at what the RCC has done? Or is it your "humble" opinion"? Once more Faith's opinion on the RCC and it's doctrine more accurately reflects the RCC doctrine than the RCC doctrine itself.This "verbiage" as you so dismissively call it, was my attempt to show you exactly what the RCC teaching on Mary is. However, I'm sure you know what the RCC teaching is much better than the RCC itself.You say Uh huh! Why let the facts stand in the way of a good delusion!Have I entered a parallel universe?

And you know this how, exactly?

For the very simple reason that other deceased Christians, including my mother as far as I know, did not give birth to Christ or is this news to you? Why don't you actually read the "verbiage" I provided. The answers are there. I'm off to bed and I'll say a few Hail Marys, but I'll make sure I say them loudly so's to be heard over the din of the millions of others.