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Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 132 (250651)
10-11-2005 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Trixie
10-11-2005 3:43 AM


Re: This I can't let pass
It is ASKING Mary to intercede that is putting her in the place of God, which is idolatry. It is merely word-splitting to claim that that isn't the case because she is being asked to intercede WITH God. Of COURSE Catholics don't *believe* she is God, but they are attributing powers of God to her nevertheless. The point is that what they DO, their very act of talking to her as if she could hear them and answer them, puts her in that position and is idolatry in essence, whether they think that's what they are doing or not.
Medjugorje is where the walking on knees around a statue of Mary happened that I'm aware of, but really, Trixie, this kind of treatment of Mary is pretty commonly known. Put "Kneeling praying to Mary" into Google. Here's a newspaper report on ecumenical attempts between Catholics and Anglicans that focuses on this very thing. It is said as if it were the most common practice in the world that Catholics kneel and pray to statues of Mary:
He hopes the statement clarifies what he calls a misunderstanding of some denominations that think Roman Catholics "worship" Mary. Catholics venerate her by kneeling, praying and lighting candles in front of her statue, which might feel uncomfortably close to worship for some Protestants, he said.
Catholics, Anglicans reach accord on Mary
Catholics don't call this worship, but it is hard for a Protestant to see how that is anything but hair-splitting denial. Worship is merely treating a person as worthy of reverence and submission. To kneel to her, pray to her (for intercession or anything else), to light candles to her statue, is what a Protestant would call worship.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 132 (250654)
10-11-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
10-11-2005 4:53 AM


Yes the Holy SPirit too intercedes for us "with groanings," as scripture says. Jesus as our High Priest at the right hand of God intercedes for us by His blood.
Anybody can intercede, iano. Again, that is not the problem. The problem is that Mary is in heaven and Catholics believe that they can by the millions talk to her and have her hear them. That is imputing the powers of God to her, and that is what idolatry is.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 05:08 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 132 (250655)
10-11-2005 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
10-11-2005 5:07 AM


Re: This I can't let pass
Exactly!

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 132 (250667)
10-11-2005 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
10-11-2005 5:52 AM


Re: Nitpicking theological differences
Protestants have their own errors, but they aren't institutionalized, they don't represent Protestantism as such, they are just individual false or fraudulent "ministries." The Catholic errors on the other hand are institutionalized.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 132 (250822)
10-11-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
10-11-2005 10:09 AM


No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
And she's a mere human being.
Surely Paul was a mere human being as well, but I assume that the parents of Eutycus were happy that Paul interceded?
Paul was not in heaven when he interceded, and he was not asked by a few million people at once to intercede for them either.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 01:53 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 132 (250846)
10-11-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ramoss
10-11-2005 9:12 AM


No criticism allowed, huh?
One thing I have noticed is that SOME groups have a tendancy to tell other groups what they 'actually' believe. The ones that are claiming that Roman Catholics are engaging in 'Idolatry' because they are 'worshipping Mary' seem very intent on telling Roman Catholics what they believe... even though that is not what the Roman Catholics say they believe.
Well, sure, we should all be respectful of one another's personal experience and understanding of our own practices, but as a general principle what you are saying would simply eliminate all criticism of anything whatever. We'd just have to take everybody's word for whatever they tell us. There would certainly have been no Reformation. Luther wouldn't have objected to the superstitious practices of the RC Church, he would simply have accepted that what the authorities decreed is true, and not bothered to investigate the Bible which shows the untruth. You could insist that you aren't defrauding the people because you can rationalize it this way or that way, and everybody should just accept what you say.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-11-2005 4:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 68 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 4:26 PM Faith has replied
 Message 100 by ramoss, posted 10-11-2005 10:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 132 (250866)
10-11-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 4:19 PM


She herself would be appalled at what is done in her name. She is not this goddess that the RC church has made of her. She was a simple devout Jewish girl, pure in heart, and highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, but still simply an ordinary human being. Jesus Himself makes sure that she is kept in the background in order to prevent exactly this exaltation of her that has been done by the RC Church. He constantly affirms that blood relations are not important, that those who are His true family are those who are obedient to God.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 04:25 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 132 (250869)
10-11-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Trixie
10-11-2005 4:26 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
I have read a great deal of Catholic doctrine on Mary, Trixie. None of it changes a thing I have said. Simply understand what I've said. I said that Catholics don't believe she is God, but that nevertheless their actions put her in that role, and all this verbiage does not change the fact that praying to her to intercede for you is putting her in that role. She is an excellent model of a faithful worshiper of God, but being in heaven she does not have powers to hear and answer prayer by the living of any kind whatsoever, and far from powers to hear and answer the prayers of millions. You are free to view the situation as you please but you are not going to change my mind about its being idolatry.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 04:35 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 132 (250893)
10-11-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
10-11-2005 4:51 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
Is heaven a kind of prison, such that when you are there you lose the power to intercede with God?
They may in fact intercede for all God's people all the time, as we are all part of one Body after all, both living and in heaven, but again, what I've been trying to get across is that they can't hear the prayers of the living ASKING them to intercede and they certainly can't hear and respond to the prayers of MILLIONS AT ONCE. Only God can do such things.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 132 (250898)
10-11-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Trixie
10-11-2005 4:46 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
This "verbiage" as you so dismissively call it, was my attempt to show you exactly what the RCC teaching on Mary is. However, I'm sure you know what the RCC teaching is much better than the RCC itself.
For the purposes of this discussion I haven't claimed to know anything more than what you yourself have affirmed, that you pray to Mary to intercede with God for you. It is common sense that Mary, who is a human being in heaven, does not have omniscience and cannot hear and respond to the prayers of millions of Catholics, and to believe that she can is to impute the powers of God to her. Common sense, Trixie. If you believe that of Mary, why not believe it of any other deceased Christian? One could presumably pray to one's own mother in heaven, knowing that she would love us enough personally to pray particularly for us. In fact that would be more of a sure thing than competing with millions of other Catholics for "Mary's" ear.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Trixie, posted 10-11-2005 6:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 132 (250909)
10-11-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Trixie
10-11-2005 6:00 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
This is common sense. If you believe Mary is omniscient (which would mean that all other Christians who are in heaven are also omniscient), and that somehow that is not imputing the attributes of God to her, I've said my piece and I have nothing else to say.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 132 (250912)
10-11-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Trixie
10-11-2005 6:07 PM


Re: No criticism allowed, huh?
That is precisely the problem. Mary's being Jesus' mother does NOT confer on her any special powers. There is absolutely NOTHING in scripture to justify such an idea, and in fact plenty in scripture to show that Jesus counted her among His followers as one of them, not in any way superior to them.
I understand that you are a Catholic and you believe what they have taught you and want to defend it. But my point of view is nothing more than what a Bible-believing Protestant can see from scripture itself. There is no point in continuing the argument, this being the case.
This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 06:12 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 132 (250924)
10-11-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:15 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
They are two different points. She can't hear anything from heaven, period. That's one point. Another point that ought to cinch it is that the idea that Catholics have that she should not only be able to hear from heaven at all, but actually register the prayers of millions of Catholics at once, makes it even more of an imputation of the powers of God.
At the time of the development of the idea of the "mother of God" there were warnings from some thoughtful men of the Church that while it is a defensible title of honor for Mary, it could all too easily lead to just what it has led to, an imputation of powers to her that amounts to idolatry.
She is the human mother of the human Jesus who happens to be God. She has no divinity in herself. She conceived by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, her Son, is therefore both God from His Father and full human being from His mother. She is nothing but a human being, a faithful follower of God but only a human being, nothing more.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 132 (250930)
10-11-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:31 PM


I've already said she was blessed to be the mother of the Messiah. That doesn't make her more than a human being.
Many others in scripture have "found favor with" God.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 132 (250937)
10-11-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
10-11-2005 6:38 PM


Re: No mere human being in heaven or on earth can intercede for millions
Excuse me, I didn't mean they can't hear anything at all. I have no idea what if anything they might be able to "hear." The point is that they cannot hear prayers. That is in God's power only.
Really, those who have made a little godlet out of the humble Mary are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

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Replies to this message:
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