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Author Topic:   First Gay marriage, then Polygamy (its happening!)
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 12 of 94 (248222)
10-02-2005 2:40 PM


Marriage isn't just a contract between two individuals. The state is also an implicit partner to the contract, because of rights that are due to a spouse in various laws. This has been the basis for some of the legal arguments about gay marriage (in Mass. for example).
When you go to polygamy, this becomes much more of a problem. Are the spousal rights divided between multiple spouses? Or are they replicated so that each gets full rights?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 59 of 94 (250954)
10-11-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
10-11-2005 6:13 PM


Re: what's the problem
If there's no indication that there's a time when a gay person "becomes" gay, then its pretty obvious to me that the reasonable conclusion is that they were born that way.
That's not at all obvious to me.
To illustrate, let's paraphrase. There is no indication that there's a time when an English speaking person becomes English speaking. Yet we know that being English speaking is environmental, not genetic.
Were that true, there would be no gay people - our society has, for many many generations, done all it could do to prevent homosexuality in people.
That's also far from obvious.
Society has done all it can to discourage people from choosing to be gay. But that's a different issue. Already holmes has agreed that it is not a matter of choice. We simply don't know what environmental circumstances might encourage or discourage homosexuality. And if we don't know, then we likely haven't done anything to prevent it.

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 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2005 6:13 PM crashfrog has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 61 of 94 (250991)
10-11-2005 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
10-11-2005 8:13 PM


Re: what's the problem
There is no indication that there's a time when an English speaking person becomes English speaking.
Sure there is - their first word. My first word was "hot." I had touched a stove and burned myself. (Not a bright kid, really.)
Yet if, at the time of that first word, you were adopted by Chinese parents, taken to China, and brought up where only Chinese was spoken, you would likely have turned out to be a Chinese speaker and not an English speaker.
But here's the thing. While you have to have spoken English at some point to be considered a speaker of English, we regularly ascribe sexual preferences to persons who have never had sex; to persons who are not even sufficiently physically developed to be capable of sexual intercourse.
However, we don't do this arbitrarily. Presumably we base it on observed behavior.
Now, there's no known convergencies in the environmental histories of gay persons at that early age that would explain why they're gay.
That this is unknown does not prove that there is no environmental involvement.
And I'm supposed to take seriously the idea that "we don't know that people are born gay"? C'mon, already. There's more than enough data for us to come to a tentative conclusion. Unless you're already ideologically committed to the idea that our sexual preferences are entirely a matter of choice, not heredity.
You appear to be saying that on the basis of a false dichotomy. Sexual preference might be neither hereditary nor a matter of choice, much as a person's native language is neither genetic, nor a matter of that person's choice.
There was an extensive discussion in Focus on the Family Will Keep your Kid from Being Gay and in Determining genetic influence on sexuality. On my reading, the evidence pointed to genetics perhaps biasing the sexuality but not determining it.
I won't comment on the rest of your post, except to say that it is mostly a rant.

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 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 10-12-2005 7:54 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 65 of 94 (251069)
10-12-2005 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog
10-12-2005 7:54 AM


Re: what's the problem
However, we don't do this arbitrarily. Presumably we base it on observed behavior.
Presumably? How about you check on that and get back to me.
The context here was crashfrog's assertion "we regularly ascribe sexual preferences to persons who have never had sex".
Personally, I don't go around ascribing sexual preferences to people. I presume you do, given what you have stated. My presumption that this is based on observed behavior was simply a presumption of rationality. If you would rather insist that you are arbitrary and capricious in your ascription of sexuality, then I will have to take your word for it.
That this is unknown does not prove that there is no environmental involvement.
No; what it proves is that your side of the argument is an argument constructed entirely on ignorance.
Thanks, crashfrog. I appreciate your judgement of "ignorance".
Thus far you have provided only assertions. I at least provided links to two previous threads where this topic was discussed.
On my side there is evidence; on your side, none. To reasonable people that's enough to settle the issue, at least tenatively.
Personally, I don't consider unbacked claims of evidence to settle anything. To each his own standards, I guess.

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 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 10-12-2005 7:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 82 of 94 (253581)
10-21-2005 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by HaggisnNeeps
10-21-2005 12:19 AM


Re: I've never really got my head round the objections
I have never really gotten my head around the Christian objections to homosexuality/gay marriage.
They probably think that they will turn into pillars of salt.
I can follow the first step very easily - the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Ok, fine. If that's true then Christians who believe that shouldn't be gay or get married to someone of the same sex.
Quite right.
How does that then lead to trying to dictate what is legal/illegal for non-Christians?
They apparently believe that marriage is a religious matter, not a state matter. Therefore the state should pass laws and constitutional amendments banning gay marriage and making marriage a state affair, so that marriage can remain a religious affair and not a state affair.
If that does not seem logical, please don't blame me.
Or is it simply that they feel anything non-Christian should be illegal?
These people are control freaks, provided that it is them controlling us and not us controlling them.
I wish someone could explain what exactly people hope to achieve?
A thousand years ago, or so, King Canute is said to have attempted to hold back the tide. He failed.
As far as I can tell, these people want to repeat the experiment.

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