|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
... those who have made a little godlet out of the humble Mary... Perhaps you can provide support for the assertion that someone has made a 'godlet' out of Mary? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There's a ton of biblical backing Asgara. ONLY God is described as being omniscient in scripture. It is one of the attributes of God, period. ONLY God is described as hearing and answering prayer. God alone is the one to whom we are told to direct our prayers. The idea that because they are merely asking for intercession this somehow takes it out of the category of prayer is a deception. If you address someone in heaven about anything, that is prayer. We don't need chapter and verse to know that is utterly out of keeping with the message of the Bible.
The whole tenor of scripture defines Mary as a human being and nothing more, and in fact seems to go out of its way to diminish rather than exalt her. Jesus upbraids his mother more than once, calls her "woman" even, even appears to chide her for interfering, as when He said "don't you know I must be about My father's business" in the temple, and when she called Him to deal with the wine's running out at Cana and He said "Woman, what do I have to do with you? My time has not yet come." He tells the woman who says "blessed are the breasts that suckled you" that it is those who obey God who are blessed, and He tells those who inform Him that His family are outside to see Him, that His true mother and brothers and sisters are those who obey God etc. There's really very little about Mary in scripture and what there is appears to give her rather short shrift despite the early part where her being the mother of the Messiah is duly celebrated. Jesus gives her to His disciple to look after when she is with Him at the cross, and after His resurrection she is merely mentioned as being among the throng in the upper room. That's all, merely mentioned among them, given no role to play that is recorded in scripture, is merely mentioned as being there. There is no sign that she is to be given any special attention other than as a faithful handmaiden of the Lord, and in fact every sign that she is not to be especially venerated at all. This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 08:02 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1304 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes:
didn't jesus ever hear the "honour thy mother and thy father" bit? Jesus upbraids his mother more than once, calls her "woman" even, even appears to chide her for interfering, as when He said "don't you know I must be about My father's business" in the temple, and when she called Him to deal with the wine's running out at Cana and He said "Woman, what do I have to do with you? My time has not yet come." He tells the woman who says "blessed are the paps that suckled you" that it is those who obey God who are blessed, and He tells those who inform Him that His family are outside to see Him, that His true mother and brothers and sisters are those who obey God etcnot a very "christian" attitude
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I have no idea what if anything they might be able to "hear." The point is that they cannot hear prayers Do you realize this is a direct contradiction? And thanks for dodging all the scripture I looked up that proves you are wrong and do not read the Bible literally.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The Protestants have offended Jesus and they spit on his mother. The Protestants worship the Bible and put a mere book in the place of God. The Bible is isnpired by God but it is still a mere book, just a human construct.
Everyone in heaven is capable of hearing prayers from people on earth and they look down upon us from above. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest otherwise. The ability to hear prayer is not omniscience, and I don't even think the word 'omniscience' is in the Bible. The people who make claims of reading the literal word of God and then tell people it says what it doesn't are liars and the ultimate blasphemers.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Here's my answer to that post you keep complaining I haven't answered:
Please admit that you don't know how someone who is dead and heaven would feel or you are claiming to be omniscient and are putting yourself in the place of God. Oh don't be silly. This has nothing to do with her being dead but with the sort of character she had, which is shown in scripture.
She is not this goddess that the RC church has made of her. She was a simple devout Jewish girl, pure in heart, and highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, but still simply an ordinary human being.
Here is what the Angel Gabriel said to Mary: The Angel Gabriel writes: Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you for you have found favor with God He didn't say Hello mere human.... God favors Mary, even god places her apart from other people I see, and does that make her a Goddess in your view? Your silliness exceeds all bounds. Nobody said she wasn't special or placed apart. She was highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, and certainly of a very pure heart to be chosen. However, MANY human beings have been said to have "found favor with God" in the scripture, and I don't know how she ranks with Moses and Abraham and David etc, but probably not above them. She is A HUMAN BEING AND NOT A SUPERNATURAL BEING PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO.
Mary writes: My soul magnifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; Her soul magnifies the Lord and God regards her and she even says, herself, that generations will call her blessed. Sounds to me like she is more than a mere ordinary human, what do you think? Again, CLEARLY I meant simply that she is not a SUPERNATURAL BEING WHO CAN HEAR PRAYER but a HUMAN BEING. Certainly she was highly favored by God, and known throughout the history of the church as blessed and the Magnificat is a glorious expression of her humble heart. HER soul magnifies the Lord, as should the soul of all of us -- it is a most blessed state when our souls magnify the Lord. But the souls of too many Catholics magnify Mary instead.
Jesus Himself makes sure that she is kept in the background in order to prevent exactly this exaltation of her that has been done by the RC Church.
Please support this with bible quotations. Please see my answer to Asgara, Message 92 for references to the general biblical portrait of Mary and Jesus' dealings with her, that could even be seen as overly harsh or suppressive if anything. ========And your next post: She can't hear anything from heaven, period.
How do you know? Maybe everyone in heaven can hear people on earth, and see them too far all I know. How can you make this claim? Where can I learn this other than from you? Excuse me if I misspoke. I do not know if they have total noncontact with earth or not, but I do know they cannot hear prayer as that is a power of God's alone. Prayers go straight to God Himself as He is the one who answers them, and the only one who is capable of responding in detail to every single human being at every single moment.
but actually register the prayers of millions of Catholics at once, makes it even more of an imputation of the powers of God.
Lets just stick to the one prayer thing and then move on to this. No, both points apply, as does my third point that making Mary into an intercessor for the Church usurps the role specifically given to Jesus Christ.
She is the human mother of the human Jesus who happens to be God.
You make it sound like she was picked at random. No, she was picked for her pure and humble heart devoted to God. Mary is, as I have said more than once, a faithful servant of God. That doesn't mean she was the only one that could be said of, however.
She is nothing but a human being, a faithful follower of God but only a human being, nothing more.
Clearly this contradicts the bible as I showed in my previous post. You are so disrespectfull to Jesus' mother and thus Jesus himself, you should be ashamed of yourself. So therefore she's something other than a human being, like a goddess? You can't respect her if she's merely a faithful godly human being? She has to be supernatural? =====================
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Everyone in heaven is capable of hearing prayers from people on earth and they look down upon us from above. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest otherwise. There is certainly nothing in the Bible to suggest that they do either.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
So you're admitting that you're both going on your own beliefs. Thanks, guess that ends this discussion. You have no biblical support for what you are claiming, so I expect you will now admit it and drop it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh good grief. Sorry, I wasn't being careful about my answer. I didn't read it the way you read it. I give up. I thought he was talking about merely "looking down" and "seeing and hearing" not really hearing prayer in the sense that God hears prayer, through the spirit, bazillions at a time. HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT DO THAT. As I've said all along.
I have no idea if they have any other contact with earth from heaven but I rather think they can't, but I know they do not hear and answer prayers as Catholics expect Mary to do. This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 10:50 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 632 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Personally, I think all of christianity is idoltary myself.. but it isn't in the mind of the beleivers. I accept that Christians do not believe it is.
I happen to think it is. If the Roman Catholics say that they are not worshipping Mary as god, then, they are not worshpping mary as god.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 632 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
THe arguement from silence?
ONe thing I will say is that the Sola Scriptura is a protestant inovation, and the Catholic Church does have tradition. In that, it seems to have more in common with Judiasm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Personally, I think all of christianity is idoltary myself.. but it isn't in the mind of the beleivers. I accept that Christians do not believe it is. I happen to think it is. If the Roman Catholics say that they are not worshipping Mary as god, then, they are not worshpping mary as god. Interesting. I would think either Christianity is or isn't idolatry myself, in objective terms, no matter what anybody in particular thinks about it. Both can't be true. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas. Therefore you are either right or wrong in thinking that it is and I am either right or wrong in thinking that it's not. Both can't be right. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas. Same with worshipping Mary as God. Either they are or they aren't. Either they think they aren't but are, or I am wrong. Both can't be right. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Catholicism with their tradition and Judaism with the Talmud definitely have a lot in common with each other. Tradition supposedly illuminates scripture, but it seems to me that in both the case of Catholicism and Judaism it has mostly supplanted it. Sola Scriptura was a necessary formulation to counter the RC Church's near-abandonment of all scripture-based preaching in the centuries prior to the Reformation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Oh don't be silly. You are the silliest person on this sight.
This has nothing to do with her being dead but with the sort of character she had, which is shown in scripture. well then show it already....
I see, and does that make her a Goddess in your view? Not only does this NOT make her a goddes in MY view, she has NOT been made a goddess by ANY catholic's view, as been said by many people and been failed to be recognized by you, you dumbass.
Your silliness exceeds all bounds. Speak for yourself. Your silliness exceeds the divinity of Jesus.
She was highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, and certainly of a very pure heart to be chosen. So..suddenly you've stopped talking shit about her....
However, MANY human beings have been said to have "found favor with God" in the scripture quote away liar
I don't know how she ranks with Moses and Abraham and David etc, but probably not above them. She is A HUMAN BEING AND NOT A SUPERNATURAL BEING PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO. At least you've graduated to admitting that you don't know something...congradulations
I do not know if they have total noncontact with earth or not, but I do know they cannot hear prayer This is another direct contradiction you've made with yourself which is the reason that no one can communicate with you.
as does my third point that making Mary into an intercessor for the Church usurps the role specifically given to Jesus Christ but this point has been refuted so it is false and you are wrong
Mary is, as I have said more than once, a faithful servant of God. That doesn't mean she was the only one that could be said of, however. So.. how many people, in your opinion, which you seem to claim to be god's opinion, were capable of being the mother of god? please answer without saying that you don't think your opinion is god's, which you've clearly shown to be the case.
So therefore she's something other than a human being, like a goddess? no, she isn't a goddess
You can't respect her if she's merely a faithful godly human being? godly human being? now what are you saying?
She has to be supernatural? Sort of...in order to give birth to god while remaining a virgin, something supernatural has to happen. It is simple biology.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I thought he was talking about merely "looking down" and "seeing and hearing" not really hearing prayer in the sense that God hears prayer, through the spirit, bazillions at a time. HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT DO THAT. As I've said all along. But this IS what I was talking about. We are both reading the bible literally and we are disagreeing, how can that be possible with all of god's mighty? we should be totally agreeing but I still think you are a big fat liar.
I have no idea if they have any other contact with earth from heaven but I rather think they can't, but I know they do not hear and answer prayers as Catholics expect Mary to do. Yet another direct contradiction you've made with yourself that proves you are not a biblical literalist but a falsification of God's Word and a blashphemer.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024