Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?

Perhaps you can provide support for the assertion that someone has made a 'godlet' out of Mary?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There's a ton of biblical backing Asgara. ONLY God is described as being omniscient in scripture. It is one of the attributes of God, period. ONLY God is described as hearing and answering prayer. God alone is the one to whom we are told to direct our prayers. The idea that because they are merely asking for intercession this somehow takes it out of the category of prayer is a deception. If you address someone in heaven about anything, that is prayer. We don't need chapter and verse to know that is utterly out of keeping with the message of the Bible.The whole tenor of scripture defines Mary as a human being and nothing more, and in fact seems to go out of its way to diminish rather than exalt her. Jesus upbraids his mother more than once, calls her "woman" even, even appears to chide her for interfering, as when He said "don't you know I must be about My father's business" in the temple, and when she called Him to deal with the wine's running out at Cana and He said "Woman, what do I have to do with you? My time has not yet come." He tells the woman who says "blessed are the breasts that suckled you" that it is those who obey God who are blessed, and He tells those who inform Him that His family are outside to see Him, that His true mother and brothers and sisters are those who obey God etc. There's really very little about Mary in scripture and what there is appears to give her rather short shrift despite the early part where her being the mother of the Messiah is duly celebrated. Jesus gives her to His disciple to look after when she is with Him at the cross, and after His resurrection she is merely mentioned as being among the throng in the upper room. That's all, merely mentioned among them, given no role to play that is recorded in scripture, is merely mentioned as being there. There is no sign that she is to be given any special attention other than as a faithful handmaiden of the Lord, and in fact every sign that she is not to be especially venerated at all.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 08:02 PM

didn't jesus ever hear the "honour thy mother and thy father" bit?
not a very "christian" attitude

Do you realize this is a direct contradiction?And thanks for dodging all the scripture I looked up that proves you are wrong and do not read the Bible literally.

The Protestants have offended Jesus and they spit on his mother. The Protestants worship the Bible and put a mere book in the place of God. The Bible is isnpired by God but it is still a mere book, just a human construct.Everyone in heaven is capable of hearing prayers from people on earth and they look down upon us from above. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest otherwise. The ability to hear prayer is not omniscience, and I don't even think the word 'omniscience' is in the Bible. The people who make claims of reading the literal word of God and then tell people it says what it doesn't are liars and the ultimate blasphemers.

Here's my answer to that post you keep complaining I haven't answered: Oh don't be silly. This has nothing to do with her being dead but with the sort of character she had, which is shown in scripture. I see, and does that make her a Goddess in your view?Your silliness exceeds all bounds. Nobody said she wasn't special or placed apart. She was highly blessed to be the mother of the Messiah, and certainly of a very pure heart to be chosen. However, MANY human beings have been said to have "found favor with God" in the scripture, and I don't know how she ranks with Moses and Abraham and David etc, but probably not above them. She is A HUMAN BEING AND NOT A SUPERNATURAL BEING PEOPLE CAN PRAY TO. Again, CLEARLY I meant simply that she is not a SUPERNATURAL BEING WHO CAN HEAR PRAYER but a HUMAN BEING. Certainly she was highly favored by God, and known throughout the history of the church as blessed and the Magnificat is a glorious expression of her humble heart. HER soul magnifies the Lord, as should the soul of all of us -- it is a most blessed state when our souls magnify the Lord. But the souls of too many Catholics magnify Mary instead. Please see my answer to Asgara, Message 92 for references to the general biblical portrait of Mary and Jesus' dealings with her, that could even be seen as overly harsh or suppressive if anything.========
And your next post: Excuse me if I misspoke. I do not know if they have total noncontact with earth or not, but I do know they cannot hear prayer as that is a power of God's alone. Prayers go straight to God Himself as He is the one who answers them, and the only one who is capable of responding in detail to every single human being at every single moment. No, both points apply, as does my third point that making Mary into an intercessor for the Church usurps the role specifically given to Jesus Christ. No, she was picked for her pure and humble heart devoted to God. Mary is, as I have said more than once, a faithful servant of God. That doesn't mean she was the only one that could be said of, however. So therefore she's something other than a human being, like a goddess? You can't respect her if she's merely a faithful godly human being? She has to be supernatural?=====================

There is certainly nothing in the Bible to suggest that they do either.

So you're admitting that you're both going on your own beliefs. Thanks, guess that ends this discussion. You have no biblical support for what you are claiming, so I expect you will now admit it and drop it.

Oh good grief. Sorry, I wasn't being careful about my answer. I didn't read it the way you read it. I give up. I thought he was talking about merely "looking down" and "seeing and hearing" not really hearing prayer in the sense that God hears prayer, through the spirit, bazillions at a time. HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT DO THAT. As I've said all along.I have no idea if they have any other contact with earth from heaven but I rather think they can't, but I know they do not hear and answer prayers as Catholics expect Mary to do.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-11-2005 10:50 PM

Personally, I think all of christianity is idoltary myself.. but it isn't in the mind of the beleivers. I accept that Christians do not believe it is.I happen to think it is. If the Roman Catholics say that they are not worshipping Mary as god, then, they are not worshpping mary as god.

THe arguement from silence?ONe thing I will say is that the Sola Scriptura is a protestant inovation, and the Catholic Church does have tradition. In that, it seems to have more in common with Judiasm.

Interesting. I would think either Christianity is or isn't idolatry myself, in objective terms, no matter what anybody in particular thinks about it. Both can't be true. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas.Therefore you are either right or wrong in thinking that it is and I am either right or wrong in thinking that it's not. Both can't be right. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas.Same with worshipping Mary as God. Either they are or they aren't. Either they think they aren't but are, or I am wrong. Both can't be right. That is why we have debates. That is why people criticize ideas.

Catholicism with their tradition and Judaism with the Talmud definitely have a lot in common with each other. Tradition supposedly illuminates scripture, but it seems to me that in both the case of Catholicism and Judaism it has mostly supplanted it. Sola Scriptura was a necessary formulation to counter the RC Church's near-abandonment of all scripture-based preaching in the centuries prior to the Reformation.

You are the silliest person on this sight. well then show it already.... Not only does this NOT make her a goddes in MY view, she has NOT been made a goddess by ANY catholic's view, as been said by many people and been failed to be recognized by you, you dumbass. Speak for yourself. Your silliness exceeds the divinity of Jesus. So..suddenly you've stopped talking shit about her.... quote away liar At least you've graduated to admitting that you don't know something...congradulations This is another direct contradiction you've made with yourself which is the reason that no one can communicate with you. but this point has been refuted so it is false and you are wrong So.. how many people, in your opinion, which you seem to claim to be god's opinion, were capable of being the mother of god? please answer without saying that you don't think your opinion is god's, which you've clearly shown to be the case. no, she isn't a goddess godly human being? now what are you saying? Sort of...in order to give birth to god while remaining a virgin, something supernatural has to happen. It is simple biology.

But this IS what I was talking about.We are both reading the bible literally and we are disagreeing, how can that be possible with all of god's mighty? we should be totally agreeing but I still think you are a big fat liar. Yet another direct contradiction you've made with yourself that proves you are not a biblical literalist but a falsification of God's Word and a blashphemer.