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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 302 (250789)
10-11-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by iano
10-11-2005 11:44 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
It goes to basics.

GOD would have to be stupid to expect mankind to be able to suceed in always doing right. Only a truly stupid or vindictive GOD would set a bar so high as to be unachievable.

If GOD is not stupid or vindictive then the bar must be the attempt and not the achievement.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 11:44 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 PM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 272 of 302 (250802)
10-11-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
10-11-2005 11:49 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

GOD would have to be stupid to expect mankind to be able to suceed in always doing right. Only a truly stupid or vindictive GOD would set a bar so high as to be unachievable.If GOD is not stupid or vindictive then the bar must be the attempt and not the achievement.

This is excellent rational thinking. I mean that sincerely Jar.

Now, imagine there was a biblical case to be made for the bar being set to high for us and that the reason for doing this was that the person would arrive at the only other conclusion that it logically possible...

"That bar is too high for me - I can't jump it - that means Hell for me. Oh dear"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 12:36 PM iano has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 302 (250806)
10-11-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
10-11-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
That's why Salvation is freely given to all and all that GOD expects of mankind is that they try.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 4:50 AM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 274 of 302 (251036)
10-12-2005 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by jar
10-11-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Possibility 1:

Jar writes:

GOD would have to be stupid to expect mankind to be able to suceed in always doing right. Only a truly stupid or vindictive GOD would set a bar so high as to be unachievable.If GOD is not stupid or vindictive then the bar must be the attempt and not the achievement. That's why Salvation is freely given to all and all that GOD expects of mankind is that they try.

"the bar MUST be an attempt" indicates own rational thinking about how God does it. There is no biblical case for this however..

Possibility II

iano writes:

Now, imagine there was a biblical case to be made for the bar being set to high for us and that the reason for doing this was that the person would arrive at the only other conclusion that it logically possible..."I can't jump over this bar. That means I'm going to Hell. Oh dear"

And there is a biblical case to be made for this precise thing

The purpose of Law (do this, do that do the other) is not that in following it you will gain salvation. It's in not being able to follow it - and realising it - that you may gain salvation. edit: of course, not following it [b]completely[b] results in damnation.

This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 10:01 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Legend, posted 10-12-2005 8:24 AM iano has responded
 Message 277 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 12:42 PM iano has responded

Legend
Member (Idle past 3086 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 275 of 302 (251066)
10-12-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by iano
10-12-2005 4:50 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
iano writes:

The purpose of Law (do this, do that do the other) is not that in following it you will gain salvation. It's in not being able to follow it - and realising it - that you may gain salvation. edit: of course, not following it completely results in damnation.

So, when Jesus says do this, do that and you'll be saved when directly asked how to gain salvation, is he just misleading the lawyer, or plainly lying to him ?

Jesus is not speculating on theoretical possibilites, he's asked directly how to get saved. The lawyer wants to get saved, but he doesn't know how to. Jesus tells him. The lawyer walks away with the impression that if he obeys the commandments, loves God and loves his neighbour he'll be saved. If the way Jesus told him is unachievable, then Jesus just lied to the man.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 4:50 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 10:54 AM Legend has not yet responded
 Message 283 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-13-2005 3:23 AM Legend has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 276 of 302 (251108)
10-12-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Legend
10-12-2005 8:24 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
legend writes:

Jesus is not speculating on theoretical possibilites, he's asked directly how to get saved. The lawyer wants to get saved, but he doesn't know how to. Jesus tells him. The lawyer walks away with the impression that if he obeys the commandments, loves God and loves his neighbour he'll be saved. If the way Jesus told him is unachievable, then Jesus just lied to the man.

Jesus was asked, Jesus told. "Do this..." If the man thinks that he is doing what Jesus told him was necessary then he is ignoring a wealth of evidence from life that points to the contrary. Only a liar would say to himself "I do what Jesus said was necessary" The best he could say is that he tries his best to do.

We're looking at what the bible says. Not reading into it something that isn't mentioned. The only place where folk infer Jesus meant "try your best to do" is from their own heads. They won't find it in the bible.

They will find however that adherance to law/commands cannot result in salvation. So: no mention of "trying" but lots of mention of works gaining nothing in terms of salvation.

Your version or the bibles version. You pays your money...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Legend, posted 10-12-2005 8:24 AM Legend has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 277 of 302 (251149)
10-12-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by iano
10-12-2005 4:50 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
But it is in the Bible.

Love God with All YOUR heart.

Please look at that statment. It says try your best. It does not set an absolute limit. It says "do your best". It does not ask folk to do more than they are capable of.

Be All that YOU can be.

I see two seperate things here. Salvation is a given. It's a done deal. There are NO conditions attached, not belief, not non-belief.

To think that GOD sets some conditions on salvation, particularly ones that are so high that no one can ever reach them without his help is to imagine a stupid, insiped, narcissistic, vainglorious God.

Why in the hell would GOD grant salvation conditioned on what He can do?

The second issue is behavior. God has always expected mankind to try to do what's right. This is the message of the Bible from Genesis right on through.

Finally, there is Biblical support for my position and I've provided it for you. Matthew 25 is the single clearest explanation to be found in the Bible.It is Jesus, in his own words explaning the situation. And nowhere in there will you find any reference to belief, or of God doing the things for man.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 4:50 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:22 PM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 278 of 302 (251178)
10-12-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
10-12-2005 12:42 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

Love God with All YOUR heart. Please look at that statment. It says try your best. It does not set an absolute limit. It says "do your best". It does not ask folk to do more than they are capable of.

Your right. It is not specific except to say ALL heart/soul/mind. Now. Do you love God with all your heart/soul/mind? When was the last time you really pondered on what this might mean. Following his law seems like as good a place to start as any.
Have you got a spreadsheet with all the behaviour you do listed out which you know God finds objectionable. Like, grouped under the main headings of lust/deceit/covetness/anger/greed/gossip/slander etc. What strenous (with all your heart/soul/mind) efforts are you putting in place to prevent reoccurances of these things. Why are you here on this site when you could be working at that - the most important thing you could be working at. How can you say ALL when you decide instead to go for a beer with your mates? You're putting a beer ahead of God?

If you say try one more time you need to show that biblically. No more assertion on this point. Try is what counts. From the bible

As regards Matt 25. You haven't shown why this means 'cause' of salvation as opposed to 'consequence' of salvation so something else would be needed I imagine. Like, if it's this critical then I imagine the gospel would be full of it. Would it not? Where is 'trying' then?

Edit: sorry for the snotty language Jar. Try and read it as a request rather than snotty. Its been a long day...

This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 07:23 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 12:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 2:29 PM iano has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 279 of 302 (251182)
10-12-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by iano
10-12-2005 2:22 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
We don't have a lot more time here but let's try to work through this.

Do you believe GOD is reasonable?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:22 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:38 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 281 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:40 PM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 280 of 302 (251185)
10-12-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jar
10-12-2005 2:29 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

Do you believe GOD is reasonable?

No. God is absolute in everything. Someone who is absolute in everything can't be reasonable in the sense we understand it. Reasonable implies open to discussion, able to compromise, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 2:29 PM jar has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 281 of 302 (251186)
10-12-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jar
10-12-2005 2:29 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

Do you believe GOD is reasonable?

No. God is absolute in everything. Someone who is absolute in everything can't be reasonable in the sense we understand it. Reasonable implies open to discussion, able to compromise, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 2:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 3:06 PM iano has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 282 of 302 (251191)
10-12-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by iano
10-12-2005 2:40 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
By the way, would you agree to keep this tied to this one thread instead of bouncing back and forth between threads?

Okay. I was not thinking in terms of compromise or discussion even though the Bible clearly shows that he is. Consider the negotiations on how many good men to find in the city.

Let me try rewording.

Do you think God is stupid?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:40 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by iano, posted 10-13-2005 7:54 AM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 283 of 302 (251357)
10-13-2005 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Legend
10-12-2005 8:24 AM


Re: God saves period...
Legend and I may be hotly disagreeing over in the other thread. But I think he makes an excellent point here.

I would like to hear the response to this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Legend, posted 10-12-2005 8:24 AM Legend has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 284 of 302 (251358)
10-13-2005 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by iano
10-10-2005 7:44 AM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to heaven
iano, I would like to discuss this further. But, unfortuantely I have prior engagements at home, work and in another couple threads here at EvC. When I have a chance I will respond to your very well thought out post here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:44 AM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 285 of 302 (251388)
10-13-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
10-12-2005 3:06 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

Do you think God is stupid?

He is not stupid...but neither is he intelligent. These words are used to describe relative aspects of humans. A person who knows everything cannot be described in relative terms. Intelligence indicates an ability to apply, for example, rational thinking in solving a complex problem. God on the other hand doesn't have problems to apply intelligence to.

For the sake of human level discussion though: God isn't stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 10-12-2005 3:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 10-13-2005 11:10 AM iano has responded

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