What is The Atonement?

This topic came up briefly in another thread, and it got me interested in the idea. One problem I have with Christianity is this notion that Jesus died for our sins.Here's the problem I have: If God was going to forgive us anyway, why did He not do so? Why was it necessary to go through this painful rigmarole of dying on the cross?I would like to hear what people think about the meaning of the Atonement.As I noted in another thread, an ancient tradition says that Jesus died on the cross as a ransom paid to the Devil. This was the prevalent view, apparently, for a thousand years. Mighty strange, that view.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-13-2005 07:54 PM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

alright, i'm gonna lay this on herem because this has been my crisis of faith for the last two years or so. it's something i can't work out, and fails to make sense to me at all. so be nice people. this is a geniune concern of my personal faith, something i'm very touchy about. the more i study the bible, and more i look into judaism, i've realized that christianity has very little basis to stand on.why does this tie in? it's about atonement.according to the levitical standards, when a jew sins, or makes some kind of tresspass against god, there is a ritual involved. they would offer something of theirs, so that they lose something. for certain things, it was a lamb. for others, it oculd have been bread. but something physical. today there is still a ritual, but yearly. (yesterday/today, right?)the major realization i had came when i was looking at what was required, and what it was used for. sacrifices had two purposes in ancient israel. the first was to feed the preistly caste. they didn't work, only serving in the temple. offerings and sacrifices provided for them. the second purpose i realized when i looked at the flexibility of what was required: if you didn't have a lamb, find two turtledoves. if you couldn't do that, give some flour.flour.it's not that god requires sacrifice. it's partly that the priests need to eat, and partly that when someone feels bad about something they have to do something to make it right. atonement is the process by which right is made -- even without the sacrifice itself. the ritual itself provides psychological comfort. one makes a sacrifice voluntarily, of their own good will and duty. they make it of their own flock, and for themselves and no one else. i cannot sacrifice something of mine for my brother.now, look at christianity. we're told "the wage of sin is death." clearly, even according to leviticus, it is not. flour will do just fine, if it's all you have. so we are told that we are wretched and deserve to die -- where jews start out as god's beloved without requirement. ...but all we have to do is believe. that's the catch. we don't have to do anything. so when we sin, and we feel bad about it, there's nothing for us. so it builds, and builds, and builds. we don't have to sacrifice anything; it's been done FOR us, so our guilt has nowhere to go. when a jew sins, he atones, and moves on knowing that god still loves him. this is the origin of the christian guilt complex, the relapse, and the revival. christians here, you know what i'm talking about. we all do it.but, simply put, the fundamental christian belief, that the death of a person (something abhorent to jews) atoned for sins of other not yet committed is both psychologically damaging and without foundation in judaism.i do not know how to reconcile this.

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אָרַח

Well, Atonement is a bit different in the Jewish religion. Since it will soon be Yom Kipper, it is approriate to consider what attonement means to the Jewish faith.The Day of Atonement is set aside to ask forgivenes of god for 'sins' against god. For sins against another person, you have to go to the other person for forgiveness. To atone for that, you have to make right the wrongs you did against the other person.In biblical times, the sacrifice of an animal was reserved for 'uninteninal sin'. There were also sacrifices of cereal, or , repentance and prayer, and the animal sacrifices were the least important of the methods of atonement.For the blood sacricices, only specific animals were allowed, such as bulls, goats, and doves. I am sure anybody reading it will notice the distinct lack of humans on that list. There also were warning thought the Tanakh when people became too obcessed with blood sacrifice (example psalm 40:7 "Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; but my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not required."In essense, part of asking for forgivenes is repentance. What are the steps for repentance? They are as follows
* realizing the error of sinning and regretting it;
* quietly confessing it to God;
* accepting upon yourself to try not to do it again;
* trying not to do it again.Therefore, part of atonement is repentance, and that means an attempt to learn from your past mistakes, and not to do it again.One point that should be made is that the Jewish religion is for this life, and does not dwell unduely on the next one. Atonement is for this life, not the next one.From the jewish perspective , the concept of a sacrifice of a human being to forgive someone else of their sins does not make sense. The entire concept of 'salvation' for the afterlife is absent. There also is no concept of original sin. It makes an interesting contrast with the various atonement and salvation concepts in Christianity.

I don't blame you a bit.The idea that some blood sacrifice would be demanded or accepted is abhorrent.Fortunately that is not exactly what most Christians think happened.The Gospel, the story of the New Testament is a two part tale, the message, that mankind is forgiven, and the teachings.The sacrifice was not so much Jesus death, but rather the fact that he lived. He became man.The important thing then shifts to his teachings, trying to convey the message that man was saved, all mankind, and how we should live our lives.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It seems to me there are two basic forms of christianity.One is concerned about the message that is attributed to Jesus.One is concerned about the stories about Jesus.

Nonetheless, I think we can say truthfully, that "Jesus died for our sins" is a rock-bottom essential doctrine of Christianity.It's Pauline, of course.

You can. But...If you look at some of the basic things in the Christian Faith you might find a different interpretation.For example in the Nicene Creed... Pay particular attention to the section "who for us and for our salvation
came down from heaven
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary
and was made man;"This is seperated by colons to stand as a discrete statement.It points to our belief that GOD becoming Man was the basic sacrifice. His death, which is covered in the next section, again delimited by colons, is simply a continuation of his life.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar, the central Christian symbol is not God becoming man. It is the Cross--the crucifixion--the nails going into the hands.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

robinrohanFunny how it is not possible to nail a person to the cross though the hands.

Again, while that may be true in some Christian Churches, it's not the case in the majority. Particularly in the Protestant churchs, the cross is bare. No Body, no nail holes, no blood.It is a rememberance of the tragedy of Jesus death, but more an affirmation. The cross is empty, death denied, Christ reborn.You can see that reflected as well in the Nicene Creed. The central Christian symbol IMHO is the rock removed. The high points of the year are Christmas and Easter, moments related to Birth and Re-Birth.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It may be bare, but the cross is there because it stands for something--the crucifixion. It strikes me that the Prostetants, or whoever, don't want to face the Crucifixion.That's what it's all about.

Oh, we most certainly face the crucifixion. It happened in our belief. It was a horrid and horrendous act of man. Not of GOD, of man at its worst.But that is only one part of the story. Christianity is so much more than death. It's a religion of life. It is life beyond life. It is an affirmation that the Gift given freely, the Gift of Salvation, transcends even the most horrific acts of man.It is a message of hope and a lesson of how to live that life.Love GOD, and love others as you love yourself.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, this is piety, and it is no better or no worse than the humanistic piety I've been reading lately, about how if I can help one fainting robin into its nest again, I shall not live in vain, etc.Piety is piety, whether humanistic or religious.It's all a load of crap.

Do yo think that Jesus' death was just an incidental by-product of his sacrifice ? I mean, he was a man, so he would have died at some stage. It just happened to be on the cross.To me that would seem to make a lot more sense than Jesus being portrayed as some 'ransom' that God has to pay to himself.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."