Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,833 Year: 3,090/9,624 Month: 935/1,588 Week: 118/223 Day: 16/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 202 (251767)
10-14-2005 1:42 PM


Ransom to the Devil
But how are we to reconcile this ancient belief, which according to the source I read, was the view for a thousand years--that the Atonement was ransom paid to the Devil?
It appears there have been developments in doctrine.

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:35 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 44 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 3:19 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 202 (251771)
10-14-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Very sorry you feel that way and thatI failed to make myself understood.
Jar's ideas could hardly be called orthodox.
Perhaps we need a PNT on the Gospel according to jar.
Traditional accounts of the atonement come across as a medieval melodrama. They really don't make sense in this day and age. Jar's theology at least has the advantage of making more sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 1:31 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:23 PM nwr has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 33 of 202 (251778)
10-14-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Heathen
10-14-2005 1:30 PM


Crevo writes:
Hate is not the act of a being that 'is' Love
Jesus was angry and overturned money lenders table in the temple. He told us not to be angry as it was murder. Two-faced? Or could it be that his anger was righteous: his fathers house (then) being used as a money-making market. Hatred of what Hitlers did is a righteous anger. Hatred of Hitler is an unrighteous anger. If you see the difference.
God hating righteously does not conflict with his being love.
Surely we can't apply our earthly view of juctice to God?? you are very selective when you do this. it takes from your credibility.
It was a picture Crevo .. and presented as such.
iano writes:
By sustituting Jesus for those who would accept Gods way, God could satisfy those three attributes: all sin can be judged, all sin can be punished. And his love too be satisfied.
Crevo writes:
But yet we are all still condemned, as sinners, to go to hell. It seems this 'sacrifice' was totally in vain. Who, if anyone, was spared the ravages of hell by jesus' sacrifice?
True, we are all sinners. Every last one of us (except Jesus "who knew no sin" or course) All sin will be punished. Technically, those who chose as it were, to have their sin transferred, by God, onto Jesus shoulders and have it punished there won't have any sin "in their possession" when they die. "The wages of sin is death (no sin = no death thus (which incidently, is why death couldn't hold Jesus and he rose feom death) but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"
Or the person choses not to have their sin transferred and keeps a hold of it themselves. "The wages of sin is death (or eternal separation from God)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Heathen, posted 10-14-2005 1:30 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Heathen, posted 10-14-2005 3:54 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 202 (251781)
10-14-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nwr
10-14-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Very sorry you feel that way and thatI failed to make myself understood.
nwr writes:
Traditional accounts of the atonement come across as a medieval melodrama. They really don't make sense in this day and age. Jar's theology at least has the advantage of making more sense.
The trouble with that logic is that in 200 years, Jars Theology (as well as "this day and age") will appear outmoded and something fresh will be needed. If it's going to be rubbish in 200 years, it rubbish now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nwr, posted 10-14-2005 2:02 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 10-14-2005 2:31 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 202 (251782)
10-14-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Very sorry you feel that way and thatI failed to make myself understood.
Robin writes:
Yes, Jar's ideas could hardly be called orthodox.
I would have put it a little more unkindly myself
(Sorry Jar, couldn't resist the...er.. temptation)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 1:31 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 36 of 202 (251786)
10-14-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
10-14-2005 2:23 PM


Re: Very sorry you feel that way and thatI failed to make myself understood.
If it's going to be rubbish in 200 years, it rubbish now.
Indeed it is rubbish now, especially YECism.
You are doing an excellent job of making the case that religion is a human invention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:23 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 37 of 202 (251787)
10-14-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 1:42 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Robin writes:
But how are we to reconcile this ancient belief, which according to the source I read, was the view for a thousand years--that the Atonement was ransom paid to the Devil?
In a word, bugger the 1000 year belief. Don't rely on man or religion. Rely on God and his word. That's the case for Sola Scriptura. You can say even that's crap but as soon as you start into what man says then your on shaky ground. And that includes what I say.
Listen to what people say alright...but measure what they say against scripture. You need to assume a base and scripture must be it. If any
"Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many"
What is a ransom. It is something paid to free an individual from the clutches of someone....or biblically, something. What is it that is referred to so often as being the thing that we are freed from in the Bible (go read Romans 1 - 8 inclusive - just looking for this element).
THE LAW.... We are all captives to the law. We are all judged according to the law. Unless we are freed from the law. Unless someone pays the ransom required to free us from the Law. God set up the law and set the price for being freed from its grip. Blood spilt. Jesus paid the price.
Why did he require blood. I don't know. But God is free to demand what he wants and that was it. That was the price demanded under law

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 1:42 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 2:39 PM iano has replied
 Message 43 by nwr, posted 10-14-2005 3:16 PM iano has not replied
 Message 47 by Heathen, posted 10-14-2005 4:07 PM iano has replied
 Message 48 by Legend, posted 10-14-2005 5:39 PM iano has replied
 Message 136 by ramoss, posted 10-18-2005 1:10 PM iano has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 202 (251789)
10-14-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by iano
10-14-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
In a word, bugger the 1000 year belief.
Are you saying that Christians understand Christianity now better than they did in the second century?
Don't rely on man or religion. Rely on God and his word
How are you supposed to tell the difference? The "word" has to be interpreted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:57 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 39 of 202 (251790)
10-14-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
10-14-2005 12:50 PM


Re: How to muddy the water in one easy lesson.
jar writes:
I think it's refering to those Christians that forget that everything hangs on the two Great Commandments. When Christians discriminate against others, whether other Christians, Non-Christians, Gays or just take any exclusionary position, then IMHO, they miss the gate.
Jar, if only more Christians were like you, the world would be a better place.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 10-14-2005 12:50 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 202 (251795)
10-14-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 2:39 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Robin writes:
Are you saying that Christians understand Christianity now better than they did in the second century?
The book of Acts describe the very beginning of the Christian church. In it you will see even then, heresy creeping in that was fought against. The church is warned in the Epistles to beware heresy that would come in, even from within. Heresy and error is part of the church - and for good reason. If you were satan, where would you choose to concentrate your attack if not right in the enemies camp?
I'd admire him for his cunning if he wasn't such a repulsive bastard
Biblically, I'd have to see evidence of satan being paid a ransom. What man thinks matters a lot less...
How are you supposed to tell the difference? The "word" has to be interpreted.
I said rely on God.
Now, I gather you are not a believer but if I may be frank, you sound like you would like to believe if only you could. Perfectly rational. How can you believe in something you've no evidence for?
If that hunch is accurate then there is only one reason why you are in that position of being possibly, maybe, kind of...not being totally repelled by the whole idea of Christianity. He has brought you thus far. There is absolutely no harm in asking Him ("if you are there...") to help you understand, amongst all the opinion and argument where the truth lies (sic). Ask him before you read a passage if he will help you see what is being said (and what is not being said). "Rely not on your own understanding but on the renewing of your mind". He turns on the light, not us.
Read in and around 1 Corinthians 2:14. It explains why people don't see what it means. That they can't see. ("I was blind but now I see.."??)
Remember this prayer too if it ever springs to mind... it is indicative of the distance over which he works...
Lord I don't want you..
I don't even want to want you...
But I want to want to want you.
Good weekend RR

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 2:39 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 3:07 PM iano has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 202 (251797)
10-14-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
10-14-2005 2:57 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Now, I gather you are not a believer but if I may be frank, you sound like you would like to believe if only you could. Perfectly rational. How can you believe in something you've no evidence for?
I've always had an interest in theology, for some reason. Perhaps I was a monk in a previous life, who wrote tedious theological tracts by candlelight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:57 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 3:13 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 202 (251800)
10-14-2005 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 3:07 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
RR writes:
I've always had an interest in theology, for some reason. Perhaps I was a monk in a previous life, who wrote tedious theological tracts by candlelight.
There will be theologians in Hell. Just don't be one of 'em okay?
And don't forget RR...ask Him to make it clear. He can make it oh so clear...
Good weekend RobinRohan
Good weekend EvC-ers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 3:07 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 43 of 202 (251801)
10-14-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by iano
10-14-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Don't rely on man or religion. Rely on God and his word.
God's word is what he carved into the rocks, the mountains, the fossil beds. The Bible is the word of man. It is the history of man creating God in his (man's) own image. Thus we see angry men describing an angry God, vengeful men describing a vengeful God, loving men describing a loving God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:35 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 4:02 PM nwr has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 202 (251804)
10-14-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by robinrohan
10-14-2005 1:42 PM


Dualism
Actually, I like this ransom-to-the-devil idea. It makes the devil powerful, and suggests dualism (in the old sense of that word): Two equal and opposite powers battling it out through eternity.
If you believed that, the world would make sense--the mixture of good and bad that we see.
ABE: In which case heaven would be a military post.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-14-2005 02:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 1:42 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 45 of 202 (251811)
10-14-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by iano
10-14-2005 2:20 PM


iano writes:
True, we are all sinners. Every last one of us... All sin will be punished... those who chose as it were, to have their sin transferred, by God, onto Jesus shoulders ...won't have any sin "in their possession" when they die. "The wages of sin is death (no sin = no death thus (which incidently, is why death couldn't hold Jesus and he rose feom death) but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"
Or the person choses not to have their sin transferred and keeps a hold of it themselves. "The wages of sin is death (or eternal separation from God)
So... I'm still not clear, What exactly was the benefit of jesus dieing on the cross? Who chose to to have their sins transferred to jesus? I thought we were all sinners? I thought we were all doomed to hell?
You say Death couldn't hold jesus...(I presume you mean physical death as in the fact that he rose from the dead, right?) but in the next sentance Death means separation from god? hmmm...
no sin = no death, so we all still die right?
this "sacrifice" of jesus' was little more than a publicity stunt it seems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 2:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 6:44 AM Heathen has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024