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Author Topic:   Church spreading aids
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 143 (24913)
11-29-2002 7:24 AM


I doubt it's that. I would imagine the argument is that condoms encourage promiscuity, and promiscuity aids the spread of STDs including AIDS.

The RC church may be wrong on this issue, but I doubt that they're Machievellian.


  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3915 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 17 of 143 (24914)
11-29-2002 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by metatron
11-29-2002 7:04 AM


Damn, that's sickening. Okay, Metatron, I stand corrected. The statement by the Synod was really, really stupid. At least there was one Bishop that cared more for his people than for the proscriptions of some reprehensible policy invented by a bunch of caucasians in Italy as a way of increasing their tax revenues.

On the other hand, there is some weak support on a few of the links provided in the article David cited that indicates the Bishops are trying to push abstinence (good luck, wrong culture). Also, that it wasn't missionaries - these are homegrown idiots. That doesn't change the basic point, of course. Worse, in some ways, is the statement by South African President Mbeke that he isn't convinced HIV causes AIDS! Wonder what percentage of his population he'll have to lose before he becomes "convinced"? Shows what ignorance of science'll get you. Theists take note.

[Edited to add: I'd still like to hear what your friends in the ICRC have to say, if possible. Just makes me even more glad I'm not a theist.]

[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 11-29-2002]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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metatron
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 143 (24919)
11-29-2002 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Quetzal
11-29-2002 7:30 AM


There's been some complaints about my terminology, go to a moderated forum.

[This message has been edited by Metatron, 11-29-2002]


This message is a reply to:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 1866 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 19 of 143 (24942)
11-29-2002 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John
11-28-2002 10:05 PM


But it can be argued that promiscuity is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic. *IF* they kept their pants on more and used condoms more the disease would be placed in check. Also, if women were more equal with men and actually had say of whether or not a condom was used, it wouldn't be such a problem (in Africa or the US). Of course, trying to convince them that condoms are of the Devil is not good--I flatly disagree with that policy.

But I think what we are going up against is culture and and economics. Economics because in the US and in Africa, poor women are the most rapidly growing infected group. Primarily though, culture, because if monogamy were more prevalent and prostitution less prevalent and condoms more acceptable the problem wouldn't be so great. (There are some unspeakable African cultural practices that spread AIDS to infants, there was a blurb in Science a while back).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by John, posted 11-28-2002 10:05 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 20 of 143 (24994)
11-29-2002 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by gene90
11-29-2002 12:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But I think what we are going up against is culture and economics. ... Primarily though, culture, because if monogamy were more prevalent and prostitution less prevalent and condoms more acceptable the problem wouldn't be so great.

In Nevada, where prostitution is legal and regulated, condoms are required. No condom / No nookie. What are the AIDS stats from Nevada?

Prostitution occurs everywhere, in one form or another, legal or not. The highest concentration of American prostitutes is in the District of Columbia, quite literally under the noses of Congress. And it is illegal there!

How can our governors require their own whores to use condoms when they have no legal right to do so?

Prostitution is not the problem it's cracked up to be.

db


This message is a reply to:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 143 (25036)
11-30-2002 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by gene90
11-29-2002 12:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But it can be argued that promiscuity is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

quote:
*IF* they kept their pants on more and used condoms more the disease would be placed in check.

It apparently has never been a problem before. I can't think of another STD that kills within the expected lifespan of the infected person, assuming that person lives in a third world country.

quote:
Also, if women were more equal with men and actually had say of whether or not a condom was used, it wouldn't be such a problem (in Africa or the US).

No doubt.

quote:
But I think what we are going up against is culture and and economics.

Absolutely. That is why the RCC's position is so infuriating. They must radically change the culture before their policy will have any effect, but during the time it takes to do that 100 million people die and a great many more suffer the repercussions.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by gene90, posted 11-29-2002 12:58 PM gene90 has responded

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gene90
Member (Idle past 1866 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 22 of 143 (25039)
11-30-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by John
11-30-2002 11:10 AM


It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

You know what I meant.

Absolutely. That is why the RCC's position is so infuriating. They must radically change the culture before their policy will have any effect, but during the time it takes to do that 100 million people die and a great many more suffer the repercussions.

I agree with that. It's foolish that outside groups trying to curb the pandemic are working against each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by John, posted 11-30-2002 11:10 AM John has responded

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John
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 143 (25048)
11-30-2002 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by gene90
11-30-2002 11:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

You know what I meant.


Yes, I do know what you mean. Just being a pain in the butt? hmmm.... not entirely. With STDs, HIV in particular, there is a real tendency to treat them as moral issues, as behavioral shortcomings. They aren't. STDs are diseases just like colds, malaria, dysentry, or gangrene. But with these diseases the disease take the heat, (even though there are behaviors which can help control those diseases) not the person who contracted it.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 24 of 143 (25146)
12-01-2002 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by John
11-28-2002 8:03 PM


Well ? WHAT is the Point?

When in 87 after having dinner with a person in Gallos DC lab I flew to HEART OF DARKNESS only to get off the plane in Kin-s-a to find some AIDS SCIENTISTS in the same cab as we went INTO the city. They explained to me on the drive (that was to really be but another flight to MBANDAKA (for me)) pointing out the window that aids is there- finger- there - finger etc when actually denoting PEOPLE not virus. I found MISSIONARIES there who admitted (I admit) messed with the native brain since these people were worshiping with soda pop caps in a bottles for percussion instruments but they did NOT mess with the disease. It was the Missioniaries who were taking CARE of the sick. No one else was doing it. NOt even the Gov which got $$ from US banks etc. THE RELIGION IN AFRICA IS NOT TO BLAME.

What Provine had just told us the semester before was that it was OK to use CONDEMS in CHINA even though the people didnt want them!

Ditto GENE()!!90


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by John, posted 11-28-2002 8:03 PM John has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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metatron
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 143 (25150)
12-01-2002 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brad McFall
12-01-2002 1:52 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
Well ? WHAT is the Point?

When in 87 after having dinner with a person in Gallos DC lab I flew to HEART OF DARKNESS only to get off the plane in Kin-s-a to find some AIDS SCIENTISTS in the same cab as we went INTO the city. They explained to me on the drive (that was to really be but another flight to MBANDAKA (for me)) pointing out the window that aids is there- finger- there - finger etc when actually denoting PEOPLE not virus. I found MISSIONARIES there who admitted (I admit) messed with the native brain since these people were worshiping with soda pop caps in a bottles for percussion instruments but they did NOT mess with the disease. It was the Missioniaries who were taking CARE of the sick. No one else was doing it. NOt even the Gov which got $$ from US banks etc. THE RELIGION IN AFRICA IS NOT TO BLAME.

What Provine had just told us the semester before was that it was OK to use CONDEMS in CHINA even though the people didnt want them!

Ditto GENE()!!90


Is there any relevant information in this, I went cross eyed trying to decypher it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brad McFall, posted 12-01-2002 1:52 PM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 143 (25153)
12-01-2002 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by metatron
12-01-2002 3:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Metatron:
Is there any relevant information in this, I went cross eyed trying to decypher it.

Welcome to Brad...

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 143 (25156)
12-01-2002 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by John
11-30-2002 12:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

You know what I meant.


Yes, I do know what you mean. Just being a pain in the butt? hmmm.... not entirely. With STDs, HIV in particular, there is a real tendency to treat them as moral issues, as behavioral shortcomings. They aren't. STDs are diseases just like colds, malaria, dysentry, or gangrene. But with these diseases the disease take the heat, (even though there are behaviors which can help control those diseases) not the person who contracted it.


I agree.

The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain head.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John, posted 11-30-2002 12:53 PM John has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 1866 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 28 of 143 (25160)
12-01-2002 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
12-01-2002 4:30 PM


quote:
The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain(sic) head.

Well now, you've got to use common sense here. It's one thing to restrict yourself to one partner. It's another to frequent prostitutes. Also they shouldn't refuse to use condoms. I think that the AIDS epidemic is at least partially (maybe mostly) the fault of economics (prostitution) and culture (lack of monogamy).

This is very simple to understand but it isn't what people want to hear. In a typical instance, when the New York gay community was first asked to be less promiscuous, the speakers were villified as "'anti-gay f*g***s', homophobes, fearmongers, and fools" (Laurie Garrett, The Coming Plague, p 292)

Although it is possible to be infected with HIV without engaging in improper behavior (ex: bad transfusions, needle pricks) the fact is that most cases are contracted through immoral acts and behavioral shortcomings. That is why there is an AIDS stigma.

[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-01-2002]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 29 of 143 (25194)
12-01-2002 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by gene90
12-01-2002 5:44 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Although it is possible to be infected with HIV without engaging in improper behavior (ex: bad transfusions, needle pricks) the fact is that most cases are contracted through immoral acts and behavioral shortcomings. That is why there is an AIDS stigma.

Come now gene. Any fatal pandemic can terrorize the masses and stigmatize the sufferer. Consider the social response to victims of Bubonic Plague, Smallpox and Influenza. These, when mysterious and considered uniformly fatal, were thought by many to be punishments from God for some sinful behaviour or other.

Seems to me the hope of science is to liberate the human animal, not to burden it with guilt. I only hope that I have misunderstood your intent.

db


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compmage
Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 30 of 143 (25221)
12-02-2002 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by gene90
11-29-2002 12:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
There are some unspeakable African cultural practices that spread AIDS to infants...


South Africa has recently had an alarming number of child and infant rapes. A main contributor is the belief among many indigeous people (more than likely originating with witch doctors) that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS.

What scares me most is how little education is required to enable one to see threw this myth.

------------------
compmage


This message is a reply to:
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