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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1064
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 211 of 219 (250044)
10-08-2005 10:57 AM


I have to say I'm a little dissapointed no more christians have strong views on this. It seems to me to fundamental to the view of god you must hold.

unless of course this has been done to death and people are sick of it.


  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 219 (251409)
10-13-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by iano
10-06-2005 10:54 AM


Re: We meet again
I do not think that someone who rejects science in favor of a 2000 year old nomadic sheepherder's religion is in any position to be playing the "logic card" at this juncture.

quote:
What science am I rejecting? What does "2000 years", "nomadic", "sheepherder" and "religion" do to indicate that something isn't logical?

The very next sentence from my previous post answers your question.

Why didn't you include it in your response?

Here it is for you now:

If you are going to claim "God used his super powers" to explain away most of modern science, I think that my proposition (that God made us all automatons that only [i]think[/b] we have free will) is perfectly valid using your standards of evidence and explanation.

Oh, and the science you are rejecting would be modern Biology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:54 AM iano has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 213 of 219 (251411)
10-13-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by iano
10-06-2005 10:57 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
..a major source of needles guilt and shame, justification for persecution, genocide, slavery, torture, subjegation, sexism, racism, and all-around injustice...

quote:
What about the god you appear to worship - Science. Shall we take a look at some of the downsides there??

I "worship" science in the same way I "worship" a hammer.

It is a useful tool.

quote:
As with science Schraf, the way it is applied is wrong - it is not wrong in and of itself. Wouldn't you agree.

Science is a very useful, effective tool that is used to better understand the natural mechanisms of the Universe.

It is neutral WRT ethics and morality; we apply ethical and moral constraints to scientific endeavors as we deem neccessary.

Unlike Christianity and other religions, science does not claim to be the only source of righteousness, nor Ultimate Truth, etc., while you do claim this for Christianity and the Bible.

Therefore, it is perfectly valid to find fault with the system itself for being immoral or unethical because it claims to be a source of morals and ethics.


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 Message 203 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:57 AM iano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 10:26 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 912 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 214 of 219 (251947)
10-15-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by nator
10-13-2005 10:21 AM


To me there are actually 3 distinguishing issues here,

1) Free will
- dose free will exist

The answer is Yes

2) Contradiction between omnipotence and free will
- is there a contradiction between omnipotence and free will

The answer is No

3) the extent of His omnipotence
- Why Satan is not destroyed yet (cross-realm data and analysis required)
- Why a plan is needed (cross-realm data and analysis required)
- Is omnipotence simultaneous or only effective as He wishes (actually i think there should be an answer for this)

The answer is noone knows

It's no point to leverage the uncertainty of point 3) to justify a point of view of 1) and 2).

This message has been edited by Hawkins, 10-15-2005 09:41 AM


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 Message 213 by nator, posted 10-13-2005 10:21 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 10:49 AM Hawkins has responded
 Message 216 by Heathen, posted 10-15-2005 11:18 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 912 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 215 of 219 (251951)
10-15-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Hawkins
10-15-2005 10:26 AM


3) the extent of His omnipotence

That question goes to how often He goes ahead of our time to know our choices, always, periodically, or as He wishes. Alternatively, can He not go ahead of our time to know our choices if He chooses to?

This message has been edited by Hawkins, 10-15-2005 09:51 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 10:26 AM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1064
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 216 of 219 (251952)
10-15-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Hawkins
10-15-2005 10:26 AM


Hawkins writes:

- dose free will exist......The answer is Yes


Based on what? IF you take The bible/God/chriatianity as a myth.. then yes I'd agree. But according to the bible... no... Free choice is an illusion.
hawkins writes:

That question goes to how often He goes ahead of our time to know our choices, always, periodically, or as He wishes. Alternatively, can He not go ahead of our time to know our choices if He chooses to?


But god is outside of time, he sees all things...(allegedly) He knows what our choices will be... thus free will is an illusion on our part. we think we have the ability to change the outcome, but if the outcome is already known by someone how can this be? obviously there is only one outcome.

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 Message 214 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 10:26 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 912 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 217 of 219 (251954)
10-15-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Hawkins
10-15-2005 10:49 AM


That question goes to how often He goes ahead of our time to know our choices, always, periodically, or as He wishes. Alternatively, can He not go ahead of our time to know our choices if He chooses to?

If He cant "not go ahead of our time to know our choices if He chooses to", he's not omnipotence then. So,

He *CAN* (Omnipotence) when He wishes (Free will).

Hope that helps.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 219 by Heathen, posted 10-15-2005 12:20 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 219 (251960)
10-15-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Hawkins
10-15-2005 11:24 AM


If He cant "not go ahead of our time to know our choices if He chooses to", he's not omnipotence then.

You've got the limitation wrong. God cannot choose to forego knowledge about our future actions; the limitation is not in God's power but in the universe he has created. He's still omnipotent, he just can't do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 11:24 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1064
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 219 of 219 (251966)
10-15-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Hawkins
10-15-2005 11:24 AM


He *CAN* (Omnipotence) when He wishes (Free will).

The topic here is whether man (adam and Eve) had/has free will. I am not questioning God's free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 11:24 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
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