Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

Iano, you went off the point, not me, you introduced the notion of a 'truly impartial' observer, not me. 'Truly impartial' suggests to me having no preconceptions. That cannot be said of someone who believes the bible is truth. I can't agree with this... as I said, a "truly impartial" observer would reach no such conclusion. The notion of a truly impartial observer has no place in a discussion like this. that is the point I was making.You are saying, as far as I can see, that man had to have had a choice because otherwise nothing makes sense, That is exactly the point I am making. The difference is you are making the choice/no choice option fit your desired end, turning away from the possibility simply because it makes your position untenable. (probobly a typical Christian attitude to challenges?).What I am trying to do is look at what supposedly happened in Eden, and trying to make sense of the apparent contradictions without making it fit any preconception I may/may not have.
If i follow the story through,
i.e.
God made the universe and everything in it
God knew this particualr situation would arise (the temptation).
God knew what the outcome would be.
God knew that man would be punished for all eternity.
God knew all this before it even happened.
God knew there would be no other outcome.
Thus any "choice" on the part of adam and eve was an illusion.I agree this makes the notion of an all loving and all seeing god a nonsense, but that is my point. The fact that the story of genesis does just this, (makes a nonsense of the traditional view of God). Is not an argument against 'no-choice' it is merely the resulting outcome.

Seems to me that this is what every christian i have ever met does in varying degrees. The minute you stop taking the Bible 100% literally, word for word.. no metaphor or allegory, you are headed on this path and thus your opinion begins to become just that. Your Opinion, nothing more.This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-05-2005 10:57 AM

Iano, I'm not going to get sidetracked about the Impartial observer argument, it is irrelevant to the point of this thread. I placed myself internally, accepting what the bible said, and then used the story in the bible to point out contradictions. bringing it down from the inside if you will. I initially assumed Genesis to be truth, and then showed how contradictory it was. That is not ignoreing the initial assumptions, that is showing the flaws in the initial assumptions... the point of my argument.I fail to see how anyone would reach a conclusion that Adam and Eve had to have had a choice. the whole point of my argument is that the apparent contradiction in the choice issue raises questions with the logic of the bible. But it isn't, that's what I'm saying, The bible is the word of god right? The bible says that god created all...etc etc. (I'm not listing this out again... you know what I'm about to say)
Hence NO CHOICE... AFIAC you have not come back with any sufficient rebuttal of that.
Saying "well they must've had choice cos otherwise nothing(in the bible) makes sense" i.e. your only defence is that if I'm right.. you're wrong, only reinforces my argument. I am here to find out if there is any reasonable argument to my point. It doesn't appear that there is. I find your use of the word Logic here laughable. I have stated quite clearly why I think there was no real choice, Choice was an illusion. Your response is "But there must've been choice, cos otherwise my story falls apart" sorry... that is not very convincing, that is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

Bye then.

D'oh!
sorry, that's what comes of sneaking a look at the internet through a tiny window at work!
*ahem*

I have to say I'm a little dissapointed no more christians have strong views on this. It seems to me to fundamental to the view of god you must hold.unless of course this has been done to death and people are sick of it.

Based on what? IF you take The bible/God/chriatianity as a myth.. then yes I'd agree. But according to the bible... no... Free choice is an illusion. But god is outside of time, he sees all things...(allegedly) He knows what our choices will be... thus free will is an illusion on our part. we think we have the ability to change the outcome, but if the outcome is already known by someone how can this be? obviously there is only one outcome.

The topic here is whether man (adam and Eve) had/has free will. I am not questioning God's free will.