Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 132 (252111)
10-16-2005 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 4:08 AM


Re: Focus on the Topic
Hi, Mr. Ex Nihilo! I think that this post that you made was informative, if a bit long! This topic has been cleared up from both sides..(Catholic and Protestant)
Unless Trixie has any further observations...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 4:08 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Trixie, posted 10-16-2005 2:35 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 132 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-17-2005 12:54 AM Phat has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 122 of 132 (252132)
10-16-2005 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by macaroniandcheese
10-16-2005 2:21 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
brennakimi writes:
well. to start, there's all the things about the heavenly wars that milton invented. note: a novelist, not a cleric.
But there is a strong, authentic tradition in both Catholicism and Protestantism which displays a war in heaven -- the Book of Revelations (aka: the Book of the Apocalypse).
The Book(s) of Enoch, although not considered part of the canon by many churches, also incorporates these kinds of ideas as well. Jude even quotes from one the books of Enoch as if it were divinely inspired.
brennakimi writes:
...there's the spear of destiny...
But that's fiction, isn't it? I don't think there's any official Catholic doctrine about the "spear of destiny".
brennakimi writes:
...the seven deadly sins...
The seven deadly sins seems the follow the Augustinian breakdown of the Ten Commandments. The Catholic church accepted Augustine's method, and Luther also continued in this tradition with one modification: he preferred to follow the word order of Exodus 20, and so his ninth commandment became a prohibition against coveting the house and his tenth prohibited coveting the wife, slaves, and animals.
brennakimi writes:
...the regions of hell from dante's inferno (again, novelist)...
Well, the Scriptures do indicate that there are different regions of heaven, such as the Third Heaven for example. Likewise, the Scriptures do seem to indicate different regions for the dead, the righteous dead and the dead which are dammed (aka: sheol).
These ideas preceded Dante's by around a thousand years.
brennakimi writes:
the idea that mary remained a virgin after christ's birth (despite the bible saying he had brothers and the blatant knowledge that jewish tradition at the time supported large families in order to fulfill god's promise of expanding the line).
Again, there is a strong tradition from the earliest Church fathers of this. Even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli never doubted the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's only fairly recently within the Protestant churches that we see the idea of Mary having other children becoming a noteworthy idea within some Christian churches.
Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of "the brethren of the Lord." And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves -” Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli -” honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Scriptures, as have other, more modern Protestants.
Old Lutheran, High Anglican, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches all still hold the same opinions when it comes to Mary's perpetual virginity (and, like my own Catholic faith, the Eastern Orthodox can trace its roots back very far into Christian history).
Here's some more info...
What the Early Church Believed: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary | Catholic Answers
brennakimi writes:
i'd continue but i'm tired and (not being catholic) i'd have to ask someone else.
Hope I'm not boring you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 2:21 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 11:07 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 123 of 132 (252152)
10-16-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-16-2005 9:30 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
But there is a strong, authentic tradition in both Catholicism and Protestantism which displays a war in heaven -- the Book of Revelations (aka: the Book of the Apocalypse).
i was referring to the first war, the war of rebellion. there is no mention of that in the scripture. and revelation is a squished collection of prejudaic mythology anyways.
But that's fiction, isn't it? I don't think there's any official Catholic doctrine about the "spear of destiny".
official doctrine, well they probably don't preach about it in mass on sunday morning, but we protestant sure haven't heard of it and all the catholics i know have.
Well, the Scriptures do indicate that there are different regions of heaven, such as the Third Heaven for example. Likewise, the Scriptures do seem to indicate different regions for the dead, the righteous dead and the dead which are dammed (aka: sheol).
These ideas preceded Dante's by around a thousand years.
tell me where. old testament please. there's a whole lot of hell talk in the new that i see as having no basis. i don't trust inovation.
Again, there is a strong tradition from the earliest Church fathers of this. Even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli never doubted the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's only fairly recently within the Protestant churches that we see the idea of Mary having other children becoming a noteworthy idea within some Christian churches.
i just don't see whay it's important that she remain a virgin. but then i also don't see why people worship purity.
Hope I'm not boring you.
i just wonder why you're asking me.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-16-2005 11:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 9:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 11:18 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 127 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:50 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 132 (252154)
10-16-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by macaroniandcheese
10-16-2005 11:07 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
i was referring to the first war, the war of rebellion.
But it is in both 1 Enoch and in First Adam & Eve. Both of these were quite popular at the time of Jesus and infact Enoch is specifically quoted in several places in books among the common Canon.
official doctrine, well they probably don't preach about it in mass on sunday morning, but we protestant sure haven't heard of it and all the catholics i know have.
This Protestant knew about it. It was even featured in this Frontspiece from my Yearbook (Hint, it carries a banner and is located at the horses ass).
The Crusaders

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 11:07 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:34 PM jar has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 125 of 132 (252170)
10-16-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
10-16-2005 11:18 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
jar writes:
But it is in both 1 Enoch and in First Adam & Eve. Both of these were quite popular at the time of Jesus and infact Enoch is specifically quoted in several places in books among the common Canon.
That's what I was thinking too.
jar writes:
This Protestant knew about it. It was even featured in this Frontspiece from my Yearbook (Hint, it carries a banner and is located at the horses ass).
And, yet, oddly enough jar, this Catholic didn't know about it. Let me rephrase that: I knew about it from Hollywood -- but I've never read any Catholic writings which actually talk about this object. It doesn't appear to be part of any Catholic doctrine that I can think of either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 11:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 12:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 128 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 2:05 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 132 (252172)
10-16-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-16-2005 12:34 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
Certainly not part of the Dogma, but it was one of those things like the Grail and true wood of the cross and such that was fascinating to a bunch of teenage boys locked away on the summit of a hill. LOL
TTBOMK it was never more than myth.
AbE:
Perhaps part of my problem is that all of my religious education was tempered by a liberal dose of MT.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-16-2005 11:43 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:34 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 3:35 PM jar has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 127 of 132 (252174)
10-16-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by macaroniandcheese
10-16-2005 11:07 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
brennakimi writes:
tell me where. old testament please. there's a whole lot of hell talk in the new that i see as having no basis. i don't trust inovation.
Well, for the record, it's not a Catholic innovation as far as I can tell.
Here's one perspective of the different levels of hell from a very Protestant perspective....
Reformed church thoughts about the different layers of hell as recorded in Hebrew Scriptures and carried over into the Christian Scriptures...
By the way, I don't necessarilly agree with everything mentioned in this link. However, I think there are some concepts here that Catholics would generally agree with when it comes to the definition of different layers in the more tormenting parts of the afterlife.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Again, there is a strong tradition from the earliest Church fathers of this. Even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli never doubted the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's only fairly recently within the Protestant churches that we see the idea of Mary having other children becoming a noteworthy idea within some Christian churches.
brennakimi writes:
i just don't see whay it's important that she remain a virgin. but then i also don't see why people worship purity.
The site I had linked before discussed some reasons why some believe that it was important that she remain that way. But I'm not trying to convince you that the Catholic faith is the correct faith. I'm just trying to display that this belief does indeed carry over into other Christian denominations. If you want to call it a myth, that's fine with me. But it doesn't appear strictly within the Catholic faith. Many others hold to this view too -- and they believe it can be traced right back to the time of Christ.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Hope I'm not boring you.
brennakimi writes:
i just wonder why you're asking me.
I suppose I found some of your assertions confusing. Even back when I was a conservative Lutheran (which, at least in some senses, was very anti-Catholic), I didn't hold some of the views you're expressing here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 11:07 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 128 of 132 (252187)
10-16-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-16-2005 12:34 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
*shrugs* all my catholic friends knew about it and none of my protestant friends did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 12:34 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 129 of 132 (252195)
10-16-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
10-16-2005 6:41 AM


Re: Focus on the Topic
I think I've said all I have to say on this topic, unless anyone presents evidence to refute what I've posted.
For the record, I've never heard of the Spear of Destiny, except as a puter game. RC hubby hasn't heard of it either. Google, here I come!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 10-16-2005 6:41 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 3:39 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 130 of 132 (252209)
10-16-2005 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
10-16-2005 12:40 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 12:40 PM jar has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 131 of 132 (252211)
10-16-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Trixie
10-16-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Focus on the Topic
I think it's more of an object which is reputed by those within certain occultic circles to grant "special powers" -- the spear that the Roman soldier used to pierce the side of our Lord. Hitler might have looked for it -- or it might have been a movie about Hitler looking for it. I can't remember for sure now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Trixie, posted 10-16-2005 2:35 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 132 of 132 (252314)
10-17-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
10-16-2005 6:41 AM


Re: Focus on the Topic
oh..ok...
sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 10-16-2005 6:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024