What is The Atonement?

As I understand it, crucifixion involve the nail going through just above the wrist joint - between the two forearm bones and through the main bundle of nerves that serve the hand. That, and the crooked knee position mean the victim must haul himself up on those nerves to breath, leading to excruciating pain. Also, a person hauling themselves up on nailed hands would soon rip their hands in two but by nailing through the wrist, the support is sufficiently strong to last as long as possible.Consider that God knew where the nails would go when he designed the route of the nerves...

As long as you bear in mind that it is Jars theology.I wonder about the emphasis on the second greatest commandment instead of the first. Probably because folk can't figure out the following conundrum:How does one love God with all...etc, etc...when they don't even know him. Surely it's impossible to love someone you don't know. Add on "with all your heart, soul and mind" an the impossible becomes ridiculous...

God is Love. God is Wrath. God is Just. God is perfect. God is thus: perfectly Loving, Perfectly Just, Perfectly Wrathful. Love MUST do what love must do. The same with just-ness and wrath. God's plan must satisfy EACH of these attributes perfectly. He cannot for instance, just nod and wink at sin. Sin is athema to God. He hates sin because sin is dark and "in him there is no darkness at all". But he loves us even though he hates the sin in us.A mans actions must be judged justly - perfectly justly. And they will be. They will be compared to Gods own standard and weighed accordingly. When it is judged and seen as sinful it must be cast out from his presence and punished. Think of our own judicial system: the person is convicted by justice, taken away from society and punished (wrath). When you arrive in court on charges you don't expect to be told "we're forgetting what you've done, your free to go"Now, God knew we would sin. He knew his justice demanded a trial (judgement) and he knew his wrath demanded punishment for sin when we were convicted of breaking the law. But he also loves us. So he thought of a way whereby these three attributes of his could be perfectly satisfied.He found a substitute. Someone stepped up and said that they would take the punishment for the crime instead of the person who committed it. It couldn't be just anybody. It had to be a person who God would consider a suitable sacrifice. It had to be someone who was in a position to understand what it would involve. It had to be someone capable of taking the punishment for all sin. It could only be God himself who could take it.By sustituting Jesus for those who would accept Gods way, God could satisfy those three attributes: all sin can be judged, all sin can be punished. And his love too be satisfied.So, either stand up on front of the Judge with your sin on your own account and be judged and be found guilty and be cast out "into outer darkness where there will (not surprisingly) be wailing and gnashing of teeth". Or take up Gods offer and have your sin punished by someone who takes the punishment for you.(Its worth nothing that the OT pictures of sacrifice don't deal with sin finally, completely. They 'cover' sin. Hide it from view. Until such a time as it could be dealt with fully. At the cross.)(it's worth noting how ones attitude might be changed by God if they invite him in. A person who realises what God has done for them will look at the cross in wonder. They will see the judgment and wrath poured out and shiver. And they will see the love that figured out a way for them to come back and start to..."love God with all their heart soul and mind")

Jesus was angry and overturned money lenders table in the temple. He told us not to be angry as it was murder. Two-faced? Or could it be that his anger was righteous: his fathers house (then) being used as a money-making market. Hatred of what Hitlers did is a righteous anger. Hatred of Hitler is an unrighteous anger. If you see the difference.God hating righteously does not conflict with his being love. It was a picture Crevo .. and presented as such. True, we are all sinners. Every last one of us (except Jesus "who knew no sin" or course) All sin will be punished. Technically, those who chose as it were, to have their sin transferred, by God, onto Jesus shoulders and have it punished there won't have any sin "in their possession" when they die. "The wages of sin is death (no sin = no death thus (which incidently, is why death couldn't hold Jesus and he rose feom death) but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"Or the person choses not to have their sin transferred and keeps a hold of it themselves. "The wages of sin is death (or eternal separation from God)

The trouble with that logic is that in 200 years, Jars Theology (as well as "this day and age") will appear outmoded and something fresh will be needed. If it's going to be rubbish in 200 years, it rubbish now.

I would have put it a little more unkindly myself (Sorry Jar, couldn't resist the...er.. temptation)

In a word, bugger the 1000 year belief. Don't rely on man or religion. Rely on God and his word. That's the case for Sola Scriptura. You can say even that's crap but as soon as you start into what man says then your on shaky ground. And that includes what I say.Listen to what people say alright...but measure what they say against scripture. You need to assume a base and scripture must be it. If any"Jesus gave his life as a ransom for many"What is a ransom. It is something paid to free an individual from the clutches of someone....or biblically, something. What is it that is referred to so often as being the thing that we are freed from in the Bible (go read Romans 1 - 8 inclusive - just looking for this element).THE LAW.... We are all captives to the law. We are all judged according to the law. Unless we are freed from the law. Unless someone pays the ransom required to free us from the Law. God set up the law and set the price for being freed from its grip. Blood spilt. Jesus paid the price.Why did he require blood. I don't know. But God is free to demand what he wants and that was it. That was the price demanded under law

The book of Acts describe the very beginning of the Christian church. In it you will see even then, heresy creeping in that was fought against. The church is warned in the Epistles to beware heresy that would come in, even from within. Heresy and error is part of the church - and for good reason. If you were satan, where would you choose to concentrate your attack if not right in the enemies camp?I'd admire him for his cunning if he wasn't such a repulsive bastardBiblically, I'd have to see evidence of satan being paid a ransom. What man thinks matters a lot less... I said rely on God.Now, I gather you are not a believer but if I may be frank, you sound like you would like to believe if only you could. Perfectly rational. How can you believe in something you've no evidence for?If that hunch is accurate then there is only one reason why you are in that position of being possibly, maybe, kind of...not being totally repelled by the whole idea of Christianity. He has brought you thus far. There is absolutely no harm in asking Him ("if you are there...") to help you understand, amongst all the opinion and argument where the truth lies (sic). Ask him before you read a passage if he will help you see what is being said (and what is not being said). "Rely not on your own understanding but on the renewing of your mind". He turns on the light, not us.Read in and around 1 Corinthians 2:14. It explains why people don't see what it means. That they can't see. ("I was blind but now I see.."??)Remember this prayer too if it ever springs to mind... it is indicative of the distance over which he works...Lord I don't want you..
I don't even want to want you...
But I want to want to want you.Good weekend RR

There will be theologians in Hell. Just don't be one of 'em okay?And don't forget RR...ask Him to make it clear. He can make it oh so clear...Good weekend RobinRohan
Good weekend EvC-ers

If he didn't die and all sin must be punished then all of us would face punishment for our sin. Jesus opens up another option. For each individual he represents a 'potential benefit' until such time as he, for the individual, become a benefit Whoever choses to so. And God attempts to draw everyone to the position of making that choice. We don't do anything, except perhaps respond to his call and in our hearts, want what he offers. We are all born sinners. We are all born in Adam / spirtual descendents of Adam / seperate from God / not knowing God / hating God / "dead in our transgression and sins" / spiritually dead / unable to understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14) etc, etc, etc, etc. And in an "objects in motion will travel in a straight line unless acted upon by an exterior force" way, such people have but one destination. HellThe exterior force is God who in drawing us, aims to deflect us from this path and transfer us to the only other destination possible. Heaven. When he does that he, technically speaking, brings our spirits to life. The person will still sin but not in the area that counts - their spirit. That bit - the bit that remains after we die - is legally declared righteous by God. Which is why, once a person is saved, they cannot lose their salvation as Jar and others would argue. Some would point out that Jesus crucifixion wasn't such a big deal. There are more horrific ways to die they say. What they miss out on is that the wrath of God poured out on him was far less the physical pain and the separation he underwent. It's hard for us to imagine because none of us have ever known what it is like to have nothing between us and God. The son however had had all eternity with the father in perfect communion with each other. On the cross, The this perfect communion was broken and that is the suffering that Jesus experienced. Jesus always referred to his father as 'Father'. On the cross he cried out:"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me!!?" Anguish of a level that reached far beyond whatever we could imagine - for lack of knowing, far beyond his physical suffering which he didn't mention. Spiritual separation from his father as his father poured out his wrath on our sin - in him who had never sinned.Then it's back to "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" The spirtual separation is over. Communion restored I am a sinner yet I don't go to hell. Romans talks alot of how this works. Sin resides in my mortal 'flesh' (body, mind) whilst my spirit in considered righteous (without sin). The body dies as a result. My spirit goes to heaven where it is united with what's referred to as a 'glorified' body . Heaven won't be spirits floating around. For the unbeliever/unsaved, the body similarily dies because of sin in it but the spirit (which is eternal too) goes to hell because of unrighteousness due to sin Hardly...given the aboveThis message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 11:44 AM

If you read one book of the bible read Romans. It explains the mechanics of how Goddidit. Especially chapters 1-8. Try it in the light of the following breakdown:Chapter 1:1-17: Paul addressing Christians in Rome. He is going to, throughout the letter, contrast the position of the believer (them) with the position of the unbeliever. Key verses 16-17. {Paul explains the gospel in a nutshell: righteousness comes from God - by faith- not from man by his works)Chapter 1:18-23 The reason why Gentiles (everybody but the Jew) is considered by God to be guiltyChapter 1: 24 - end: Consequences of this guilt.Chapter 2 - 3:20 The Jews (or the religious) shown to be guilty too. At the start of chapter 2, you can see how a religious person who stands by with Paul in chapter 1 saying "yes, those filthy gentiles - they deserve the wrath of God" only to be told (like Jesus told the pharisees) that they are as filthy as the gentiles. Key verse 3:20 Paul sums up by saying that noone will be declared righteous in Gods sight. Here is the first indication of the laws purpose - to make people aware of sin3:21 - 3:31 A description of righteousness - God style. Note verse 3:23 and further debunking of the works method of salvation.Chapter 4: a practical demonstration of righteousness by faith. He uses Abraham, the very father of the Jewish nation as his example. Why? Its Jews hes talking to predominantly. Abraham is their father, their hero. Paul picks the very best example available which they would understand.Chapter 5: 1-12. See verse 1. Peace with God. Contrast with verse 10 - the position of the unbeliever 'enemies of God' (whether we think so or not)Chapter 5: 13 to end Contrasts righteousness with condemnation. Shows how the believer is justified ("just as if I'd" never sinned)Chapter 6:1-14 How it is that the believer is now 'dead to sin' The mechanics of it. See verse 3 for one of many 'in Christ' statements. The believer has undergone a positional change. Taken out of somewhere (Adam) and placed into somewhere.folk will hop onto verses like 6:13 and say: "this is about works" But in context it's not. Paul is exhorting (as he repeatedly does) "You have been repositioned, now reckon that, live by that knowledge, start acting what you are. You are a US Marine, don't continue acting as if you were a soldier in the Wehrmacht".Try it thus far and see if it makes sense as a whole. Not just stand alone verses.

What is taught is that believers have been positionally moved which a reading as suggested above will explain.Now see Romans 8:1-2:"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit""For, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and deathInsert the natural the conclusions from the above back in"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(meaning there is condemnation to those who are not in Christ Jesus, ie: those who remain in Adam) who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" Note that contrast between two types of people is being drawn. Note the consequence (and this is important to see) of being in Christ Jesus: a person WILL walk in the Spirit)"For (because of what I have just said), the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death (ie: not in Christ Jesus = not freed from the law of sin and death. The Law, commandments)To answer your question Crevo. A Christian is one who has been freed from the condemning work of the Law. See the contrast again in verse 8:7-9"For to be carnally minded (unsaved) is death but to be spiritually minded (saved) is life and peace""Because the carnal mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be""So they that are in the flesh, cannot please God (what does this say about works, "all your (as unbelievers) righteousness are as filthy rags (as far as God is concerned)"Only the Christian is subject to the law - but is free from it's condemnatory aspect. Only a Christian wants to keep Gods law. Only a Christian looks at Gods law and sees that it is good from first to last. Only a Christian truly hates when he (in his flesh) breaks Gods law.The unbeliever won't be subject. He refuses to be. He indeed cannot be. He may think he is. He may follow the bits he wants, that suit him. But there are parts he will find unreasonable and will hate other bits. A la cartism. God in own image and likeness. The unbeliever is free of the law but not is condemnatory aspect.Contrast Crevo. See the contrast. All the way through. Believers position vs. non-believers position

There are some things that are hard to get the head around. Eternity is one, trinity is another. 3 distinct persons but 1 God. This is not the same as dualism plus another God. The Trinity is one God, but three persons. The best description I heard of it is ice/water/steam. Different but all the same. But still no one can truly comprehend it.God the Father sacrificed something in order to 'satisfy' his love, God the Son offered himself as the sacrifice, because of his love. God the Father required the sacrifice/ransom to 'satisfy' the fact that he is just and wrath. Sin must be judged and punished. God the Father recieved the ransomWe, "whomsoever shall believe" are the ones who are freed. The people freed are the people who come to realise (by Gods Spirit working to that effect) that they are in need of Gods solution to the problem of their sin. The law of Moses, the law of conscience, the law expanded (bar raised) by Jesus in his sermon on the mount ("if you so much as look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery")The Law. The Legal Law that must be kept perfectly if one is to have a right to be declared righteous.Freed from that condemning, impossible to keep law and subject to the law of the Spirit (who comes to reside when a person is 'born again' 'born from above')"For I will write my law on their hearts" Only when Gods law is in your heart can you love it. The work of the Holy Spirit who moves in when a person is 'saved', is to make the person fit for heaven. A walk commences whereby the person who has now come to love Gods law is enabled to begin following it. To the point where the law will be no longer required. In heaven. This process is called Sanctification. The person is first Justified (declared legally and forensically righteous (ie: the recieve Jesus righteousness), Sanctified (made holier (or 'cleaner')) Glorified (perfected and brought into Gods presence)Note: that a Christian sinning carries no condemnation with it. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" Read Romans 8:1 on to see the switch over and contrast between saved (in Christ) and unsaved (in Adam) in relation to the lawThis message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 01:02 PM

Where did I imply God is a cog in a machine which would indeed be blasphemy. God cannot do anything. God can do anything that is possible for him to do. God for example cannot ignore sin. He can only forgive it or punish it. But God cannot forgive any old way. God provided a way whereby sin could be forgiven which wouldn't conflict with who he is. There is only that way. Someone who does not accept Gods way for enabling him to forgive cannot be forgiven another way.Gods way of salvation is universally available not universally accepted. My standards don't matter. If your saying that God didn't punish our sin in Jesus then what was going on? Why did God punish Jesus? "My God my God why have you foresaken me?" God is the standard. In 'setting' it he is only describing himself. Thoroughly good, thoroughly holy. His law is a way to understand who he is. Because he is just and wrath sin must be convicted and punished. Because he is love he created a way whereby that love could be satisfied.In writing off his method you imply you understand the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I take my cap off God doesn't weight anything against us. Adam was the one who sinned. God didn't make him do it. You may ask why God set it up that way - that all this could happen. Well I can't see how you give a creature choice without including the potential that they won't do as you would like. This is something that not even God can do. Create a free-willed creature who will be a robot and obey you? If he said that then his love would be satisfied but his justness and wrath would be compromised. God has found a way whereby ALL his attributes are perfectly satisfied. One is not more important than the other. He is all these things. Not just love

No. I'm just making the passing comment as above.