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Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 76 of 202 (252407)
10-17-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by iano
10-17-2005 7:58 AM


Law To Be Kept Perfectly
quote:
The Law. The Legal Law that must be kept perfectly if one is to have a right to be declared righteous.
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 7:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 77 of 202 (252408)
10-17-2005 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
10-17-2005 11:57 AM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
quote:
nwr writes:
Do you have any references that support this alleged deficit in God's abilities?
The Cross is about the best one I can think of. If God could ignore sin, what was he doing sacrificing a beloved Son?
Thanks, iano.
It seems to me that you are creating your own God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 11:57 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:40 PM nwr has replied
 Message 145 by ramoss, posted 10-18-2005 2:09 PM nwr has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 78 of 202 (252418)
10-17-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by purpledawn
10-17-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
PD writes:
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?
Er.. why should we limit things to what the OT says?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by purpledawn, posted 10-17-2005 1:16 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 4:15 PM iano has not replied
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 10-17-2005 5:18 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 79 of 202 (252419)
10-17-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by nwr
10-17-2005 1:24 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
nwr writes:
It seems to me that you are creating your own God.
The bible doesn't mention the word 'Trinity' Is a trinitarian God a God in my own image too?
iano writes:
The Cross is about the best one I can think of. If God could ignore sin, what was he doing sacrificing a beloved Son?
Any suggestions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 10-17-2005 1:24 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 10-17-2005 3:43 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 202 (252421)
10-17-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Legend
10-17-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
iano writes:
Whether YOU agree or not or think it just or not - matters not.
Legend writes:
of course it matters! If the biblical words convey meaning different to that used by the vast majority of the people then what's the point of even reading the bible. If the bible says 'flower' when referring to fish, then we might as well bin the whole thing. 'Just' is just.
Ask most people what weight they are and they'll say something like 74 kilos. This is incorrect. 74 kilos is their mass. Their weight is 74 x 9.81 Newtons.
Most people think death in the bible means only physical death. It doesn't though. The bible establishes within itself what words mean more precisely. Note also that the word 'Just' is a human word that derives from a concept put into us by God. But our meaning can never usurp his meaning. 'Just' doesn't mean 'flower' but it doesn't mean what we want it to mean either.
Furthermore, Genesis says that I can judge good or evil like God does.
Like God - not the same as God. You aren't God, so your ability to judge things is of a different order than his. You can judge based on a limited understanding of the whole. He can judge with a total understanding of the whole. If there is conflict between the two views then I'm afraid you lose
So if the sinners don't have sin in their possession are they punished at all ? Ever ?
No. Thats the whole point. No condemnation for those who are in Christ. Ever and if condemned then for -ever
Also, that confirms my initial statement that no sinners were judged and punished with Jesus' sacrifice.
Its all been done already. Your forgetting that you're in time. In eternity your future is already known. If I sin tomorrow, Jesus was punished on the cross for it 2000 years ago. That's eternity.
rewritten legend writes:
So, Love (an attribute of the Father requiring expression) put up the ransom ( his son Jesus - who loves us too) to (equally express) Justness and Wrath (other attributes of God the Father). So do you think that Jesus hasn't got the same Justness and Wrath as the Father, or that the Father lacks the love of Jesus ?
"For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son so that who would believe in him would not die but would have eternal life" John 3:16
In what way is the perfect communion between Father and Son lost ? Is Jesus not sitting to the right of the Father as we speak ?!
Like in order to understand this fully, we'd have to know how the Trinity works and what happens in eternity. Which is kind of difficult for us. Suffice to say 'right now' an expression in time cannot be used in eternity where there is no time.
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 08:08 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 08:09 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 08:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 1:16 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 4:19 PM iano has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 202 (252422)
10-17-2005 3:24 PM


Debt to nature
I'll repeat what I said in an earlier thread.
I think the idea in general has something to do with balance. In Shakespeare's tragedies, the world of the tragedy is said to be out of joint, unbalanced, and in order to get the equilibrium back, somebody has to pay, and so the tragic machinery proceeds along its inexorable course. Same thing here. In order to get the world back into equilibrium, somebody must pay the debt by way of suffering.
This is what the idea of a "ransom" suggests to me.
The debt is being paid to nature.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-17-2005 02:27 PM

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 82 of 202 (252425)
10-17-2005 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
10-17-2005 2:40 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
quote:
nwr writes:
It seems to me that you are creating your own God.
The bible doesn't mention the word 'Trinity' Is a trinitarian God a God in my own image too?
I presume that your concept of a trinitarian God comes from the traditions of christianity over many centuries. Moreover, the traditions do reference scriptures, even if the scriptural text is not explicit on the issue. Thus I would not consider that to be your creation.
It might be interesting to mention this example on the "Sola Scriptura" thread.
quote:
iano writes:
The Cross is about the best one I can think of. If God could ignore sin, what was he doing sacrificing a beloved Son?
Any suggestions?
I would suggest that you be a little more careful when making statements such as the one I commented on in Message 69. I don't have any problem with that being your own understanding or your own opinion. But I think it might be better if you were to express it in a way such that it is clear you are presenting opinion rather than accepted fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:40 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 4:27 PM nwr has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 83 of 202 (252431)
10-17-2005 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
10-17-2005 8:25 AM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
Where did I imply God is a cog in a machine which would indeed be blasphemy.
quote:
God [...] MUST [...]
god doesn't have to do anything. see, look, you do it again:
God for example cannot ignore sin
yes. god can ignore sin. god can do whatever he wants.
But God cannot forgive any old way.
sure he can. jesus seems to do it pretty easily:
quote:
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
quote:
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
what, you think something needs to die for someone to forgive?
quote:
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
My standards don't matter. If your saying that God didn't punish our sin in Jesus then what was going on? Why did God punish Jesus? "My God my God why have you foresaken me?"
i'm saying it doesn't make sense. if god is just, and somehow forbidden to do things unjust (like forgiving people on a whim, like jesus does), then he is forbidden to do the unjust deed of punishing an innocent man.
so the justification of a just god doesn't line up. either god is just, making the sacrifice of another impossible, or god is unjust making it unneccessary. take your pick.
Because he is just and wrath sin must be convicted and punished. Because he is love he created a way whereby that love could be satisfied.
seems kind of silly, doesn't it?
In writing off his method you imply you understand the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I take my cap off
i said "according to some people." i don't believe jesus to be god, although divine in origin. self-sacrifice at the hands of your own rules makes even LESS sense.
God doesn't weight anything against us. Adam was the one who sinned. God didn't make him do it.
uh, you're saying we're being damned because of the sin of another?
quote:
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
You may ask why God set it up that way - that all this could happen. Well I can't see how you give a creature choice without including the potential that they won't do as you would like. This is something that not even God can do. Create a free-willed creature who will be a robot and obey you?
yes, that is the logical conclusion. but that's not what i'm asking. we're talking about death, sacrifice, atonement, and why defining god to be a machine doesn't work.
why not just say "your sin is forgiven"
If he said that then his love would be satisfied but his justness and wrath would be compromised.
so god must have been pretty pissed off when jesus walked around galilea saying just that? surely you realized i was paraphrasing jesus himself, right? the above verses and this one:
quote:
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
God has found a way whereby ALL his attributes are perfectly satisfied. One is not more important than the other. He is all these things. Not just love
so, what? god has to take out his anger on his kid? are you saying that god's an abusive parent?
seriously now. cut it out with the blasphemy.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 8:25 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:09 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 202 (252433)
10-17-2005 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
10-17-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
PD writes:
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?
Er.. why should we limit things to what the OT says?
because YOU said so:
quote:
The Law. The Legal Law that must be kept perfectly if one is to have a right to be declared righteous.
the law, ha-torah, is the collection of the first five books of the bible. not the old testament, i might add. just genesis, exodus, leviticus, numbers, and deuteronomy.
now, where does it say in these books that you must keep the entire law, all the time, in order to be righteous? where does it say the law applies to anyone besides descendants of the 12 tribes of israel? where does it say that no man is righteous on his own?
i can show you that two out of those three are patently false with just the torah. if we want to include the nevi'im and the ketuvim (the rest of the ot) i can show you all three are false.
paul can say the law damns everyone all he wants, but the rest of the bible seems to disagree. leviticus even provides us with standards to atoning for sin, according to the law.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:35 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ramoss, posted 10-18-2005 2:14 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 85 of 202 (252435)
10-17-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
10-17-2005 3:08 PM


stupid question
Its all been done already. Your forgetting that you're in time. In eternity your future is already known. If I sin tomorrow, Jesus was punished on the cross for it 2000 years ago. That's eternity.
so, if i sin once today, someone paid the price 2000 years ago. if i sin twice today, the price is still paid. no more harm is done when i sin more, and no less harm is done when i sin less.
if we're essentially free from sin, and from the law, why not just do whatever you want?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 3:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 4:34 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 86 of 202 (252436)
10-17-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by purpledawn
10-16-2005 11:25 AM


Re: Jesus as a ransom is an absurd notion
purpledawn writes:
IMO, it isn't talking about giving up life as in death, but more like dedicating his life to serving others.
The verse in 1 Timothy 2:6 is when the idea of substitution was brought in.
The word for ransom in this verse is antilutron.
The word for ransom in the Mark passage is lutron which seems to be indicative of personal payment. Not something that accounts for everyone.
You bring up a very good point and this is something I have been thinking about too.
The initial meaning of the word was to denote the money a slave would pay to their master to be set free. Contrary to popular belief, many slaves in ancient Greece were getting paid (albeit minimally) and were allowed to wonder free of supervision. Paying the ransom was a symbolic gesture as much as a practical one, symbolising the end of their life in servitude.
In that context, I wonder whether Jesus's reference to ransom- if indeed he did say that- was a reference to a life of servitude, rather than any misconstrued sacrifice.
The word lost its meaning and context in the subsequent 'evolution' of Jesus's teachings that became the Christianity of today.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by purpledawn, posted 10-16-2005 11:25 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 202 (252438)
10-17-2005 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by nwr
10-17-2005 3:43 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
I don't have any problem with that being your own understanding or your own opinion. But I think it might be better if you were to express it in a way such that it is clear you are presenting opinion rather than accepted fact.
Accepted fact has nothing at all to do with it. Accepted fact means it is fact because many think it so. Fact doesn't rely on anybody accepting it. Fact is fact even if noone thinks it so.
All that can be done here is challenge what I say is fact. I asked what was the point of the cross if God can ignore sin. Challenge it by suggesting an reason other than that God can't ignore sin and we'll look at that. You asked me to back it up. I posed back up
Your move

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 10-17-2005 3:43 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by nwr, posted 10-17-2005 7:39 PM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 88 of 202 (252440)
10-17-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Philip
10-17-2005 12:48 PM


Re: Sacrifice
quote:
Seems there is no *divine* loving-forgiveness (in scriptures) SANS sacrifice.
it's funny how humans can forgive someone without requiring any suffering to take place, while an all-powerful, all-loving God can't (or is not willing to)!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Philip, posted 10-17-2005 12:48 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 4:36 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 100 by Philip, posted 10-17-2005 6:36 PM Legend has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 202 (252442)
10-17-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by arachnophilia
10-17-2005 4:19 PM


Re: stupid question
Arach writes:
so, if i sin once today, someone paid the price 2000 years ago. if i sin twice today, the price is still paid. no more harm is done when i sin more, and no less harm is done when i sin less.
If, assuming you are a Christian (as defined by God not man) then if you sin once, twice, three times today, Christ will have suffered for each of them. Suffered more if you sin loads, suffered less if you sin less.
If we're essentially free from sin, and from the law, why not just do whatever you want?
I think the above might indicate why a Christian (ie: a person who truly understands that his sin is punished in Christ) would tend to think it matters very, very much what he does.
It screws your head up thinking about it. But hey, thats eternity for you.
This objection to the Gospel "Hey that means I can sin all I like" is a classic one. So of course it is dealt with Romans. Adequately. Romans 6:1
"What shall we (those who realise all their sins past, present and future have been forgiven, ie: Christians) say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound"
"God forbid..." and he goes on to explain why...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 4:19 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 6:40 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 90 of 202 (252443)
10-17-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Legend
10-17-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Sacrifice
Legend writes:
it's funny how humans can forgive someone without requiring any suffering to take place...
Care to give an example?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:31 PM Legend has not replied

  
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