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Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 91 of 202 (252446)
10-17-2005 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by iano
10-17-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
iano writes:
You go to a persons home for a meal. At the meal you have a bit too much to drink. In this state you stagger into a lampstand and knock over this ornate lamp which smashes into pieces on the ground. Horror! The owner say "It's okay Legend, it's okay - I forgive you. Now just give me the $6000 it takes to replace it"
Very good example. Tell me, Is God expecting us to pay anything to replace his lampstand ?
iano writes:
Is that forgiveness. You wouldn't think so. For the owner to forgive you, it's the owner who has to suffer, to pay the price. He's got to say "Legend, I forgive you"....period. That's what forgiveness is.
Absolutely, 100% agree!!
Now maybe you can tell me why God didn't do just that ?!
iano writes:
For God to forgive you, God had to pay the price. And he did. He gave up the most precious thing he had. Jesus is the Light of the world. Your sin smashed him. God offers to forgive you for smashing him.
Hold on....now he's offering to forgive me ?! I thought you said:
iano writes:
He's got to say "Legend, I forgive you"....period. That's what forgiveness is.
Now, it's conditional ?? What is the offer based on then ?
don't tell me , I think I know..[drumroll].. is it that we accept His Son as our saviour ?
So, unlike the landlord in your analogy, God just cannot say "I forgive you". period.
There's still a price to pay, though it's more subtle.
And you know what, if you don't pay that price either then God will demand his $6000 back! And he doesn't take no for an answer.
God is effectively saying:
"you don't have to give me $6000 now, you can give me $1000 later"
"Oh and -by the way- if you don't give me that $1000 later I'm going to break your f***ng legs"
This is not forgiveness! You said so yourself.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 1:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:18 PM Legend has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 202 (252451)
10-17-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
10-17-2005 4:08 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
Arach writes:
yes. god can ignore sin. god can do whatever he wants.
Can God exist and not exist?
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
read on to verse 50 where he says to her: "Thy faith has saved thee" And interesting juxtapostion by the way, of forgiveness and salvation and faith don't you think?
And you'll see this over and over again in his forgiving and his healing. Faith is there in attendance.
what, you think something needs to die for someone to forgive?
Jesus died for those who lived before he died (OT) at the time he died (NT) and after he died. And faith was the means. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" Righteousness comes when sins are forgiven. And that happens through believing God. Having faith in what God says.
if god is just, and somehow forbidden to do things unjust (like forgiving people on a whim, like jesus does),
As i pointed out above. God is constrained by the impossibility of acting counter to himself. Jesus never forgave willy nilly. There is only one way to forgiveness. By faith
iano writes:
Because he is just and wrath sin must be convicted and punished. Because he is love he created a way whereby that love could be satisfied.
Arach writes:
seems kind of silly, doesn't it?
Why. Could you elaborate?
i don't believe jesus to be god, although divine in origin. self-sacrifice at the hands of your own rules makes even LESS sense.
As I pointed out elsewhere (maybe to you). Forgiveness ALWAYS involves self-sacrifice. You can't forgive without you being the one to pay the price. No matter what it is.
uh, you're saying we're being damned because of the sin of another?
The child of a mother with AIDs is born with AIDs. The child is infected with the disease. We were infected with the disease of sin. We sin because the disease we are infected with ensures we do. Fair/unfair is about as useless a discussion to have with a child infected with AIDs as it is to have with us who are infected with sin.
What matters only is "What is the cure". We can start into debate about whether or not it is Gods fault (it isn't ) but it doesn't matter a toss. It doesn't change anything.
"The wages of sin is death" You'd imagine that would grab our attention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 4:08 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 7:08 PM iano has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 202 (252452)
10-17-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
10-17-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
quote:
PD writes:
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?
Er.. why should we limit things to what the OT says?
Er...Because the OT is where the law was given.
When did God specify that the law was to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:19 PM purpledawn has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 202 (252453)
10-17-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Legend
10-17-2005 4:52 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Legend writes:
Now maybe you can tell me why God didn't do just that ?!
That is precisely what he did. But if the person won't accept it then God can't make them. This is where the salvation by works gig hits the wall. God is saying "I'll pay for the lamp (Jesus). And we say "No (hic) way, shure I paysh for ish" The trouble is we ain't got the $6000.
And God says that if we don't accept his payment (he can't insist on us accepting it -our free will is our free will after all) then okay, pay the 6000. Pay it in full. And if we don't pay it to the last cent (keep all the law) then carted off to prison for default we will be. Total Grace (unmerited forgiveness) or Total Law (merited Judgement). Our choice
You can give him the $6000 yourself if you like. You have all the time in the world to do it. But that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:52 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 5:48 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 95 of 202 (252454)
10-17-2005 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
10-17-2005 5:18 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
PD writes:
Er...Because the OT is where the law was given.
Er...Sermon on the mount?
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Oct-2005 10:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 10-17-2005 5:18 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by purpledawn, posted 10-17-2005 6:00 PM iano has replied
 Message 105 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 7:11 PM iano has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 202 (252461)
10-17-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Legend
10-17-2005 4:24 PM


Re: Jesus as a ransom is an absurd notion
quote:
In that context, I wonder whether Jesus's reference to ransom- if indeed he did say that- was a reference to a life of servitude, rather than any misconstrued sacrifice.
The word lost its meaning and context in the subsequent 'evolution' of Jesus's teachings that became the Christianity of today.
If you read Galations 4, which is an authentic Pauline epistle, Paul talks of the redeeming, as in, from slavery. It is not the same word used for ransom, but it seems to be more in line with the idea of freeing someone from slavery.
Unfortunately, I haven't found anything in what seems to be the actual teachings of Jesus to support the ransom/sacrifice teaching.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:24 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 97 of 202 (252462)
10-17-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
10-17-2005 5:18 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
iano writes:
That is precisely what he did.
So....God forgave us ?! Period ?! No strings attached ?!
iano writes:
But if the person won't accept it then God can't make them. This is where the salvation by works gig hits the wall. God is saying "I'll pay for the lamp (Jesus). And we say "No (hic) way, shure I paysh for ish" The trouble is we ain't got the $6000.
ahh...here's the catch! Unfortunately (for you) forgiveness does not depend on the person that is forgiven. It is the prerogative of the offended party only. Forgiveness is not an offer!
You either forgive someone or you don't. There's nothing to accept or reject. Period. You said so yourself.
iano writes:
And God says that if we don't accept his payment (he can't insist on us accepting it -our free will is our free will after all) then okay, pay the 6000. Pay it in full. And if we don't pay it to the last cent (keep all the law) then carted off to prison for default we will be
reminds me of a second-hand car dealer I know. He's not very forgiving either!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:18 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:06 AM Legend has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 98 of 202 (252463)
10-17-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by iano
10-17-2005 5:19 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus does not speak of following the Mosaic Law perfectly (without flaw).

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:13 AM purpledawn has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 99 of 202 (252467)
10-17-2005 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by iano
10-17-2005 8:30 AM


Re: Coat of Armour
Just a reply to let you know I read your post.
Having now read many of your posts I see that your belief system is completely impervious to any input from outside, therefore I will not offer any more.
Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 8:30 AM iano has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 100 of 202 (252471)
10-17-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Legend
10-17-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Sacrifice and Forgiveness
Legend writes:
it's funny how humans can forgive someone without requiring any suffering to take place...
Ouch, I should have known that was coming.
I strongly speculate (by my personal experience only), that:
Loving-forgiveness in humans is patient, longsuffering, sacrificial (in cheerfulness), looking at Christ's vicarious sacrifice as exemplary (or something), and/or a suffering-event per se.
Of course you can cite natural affections preside in local/family offenses; I won't disagree. When my kid sins, he/she's easy to excuse.
But *sin* (which seems to be against God only (Psalm 51)) I can't logically forgive (without appeal to Christ's *holy* all-redeeming sacrifice).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:31 PM Legend has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 202 (252472)
10-17-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
10-17-2005 4:34 PM


Re: stupid question
Suffered more if you sin loads, suffered less if you sin less.
doesn't follow. christ has already died, he can't die less or die more.
aside from that, christ spent about 3 hours on the cross is memory serves. if you know anything about roman executions, it normally takes a LOT longer to die that particular way. guards would come by to give the criminals water so they would die of their punishment, not dehydration.
if a guard took pity, they would break the criminal's legs so they could no longer stand on them, forcing them to suffocate under their own weight. christ, instead, was stabbed in the side.
I think the above might indicate why a Christian (ie: a person who truly understands that his sin is punished in Christ) would tend to think it matters very, very much what he does.
this is called the "why should i bother voting?" principle. christ died for all the sins of mankind, right? so i make up maybe one trillionth of that suffering, little as it was. and an individual sin an even smaller fraction.
what does one sin matter?
This objection to the Gospel "Hey that means I can sin all I like" is a classic one. So of course it is dealt with Romans. Adequately. Romans 6:1
"What shall we (those who realise all their sins past, present and future have been forgiven, ie: Christians) say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound"
"God forbid..." and he goes on to explain why...
quote:
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
romans is a fun book indeed. funny, christ spoke of life, not death.
the point is that it totally neglects what a proper faith should be. paul paints the law as a burden, something demanding our punishment and execution. same chapter:
quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death
and this is the point i addressed from the start. paul is wrong. we are not free from the law, are we? not if we're still being judged, and sin still being added to christ's burden on the cross. that's not freedom. that's skirting the rules and exploiting loopholes.
if we are free from the law, and from sin, it shouldn't matter what we do. if it does matter, we are not free. why can't i do anything i like?
well, frankly, i can. we should keep to the teachings of christ because they are RIGHT, and we should uphold the law out of duty to and respect of god. threats and punishments and bribes are for gradeschoolers.
jesus came to correct that very issue. his message was one of hope, and love, telling us that god isn't keeping score, and it's not about lip service and offerings, but what in our hearts.
if jesus died for anything, it was to show us that. god sacrificed him by giving him to us. we killed him, not god. remember that.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 4:34 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 10-17-2005 6:43 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 110 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:59 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 202 (252473)
10-17-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by arachnophilia
10-17-2005 6:40 PM


Re: stupid question
if jesus died for anything, it was to show us that. god sacrificed him by giving him to us. we killed him, not god. remember that.
if jesus LIVED for anything, it was to show us that. god sacrificed him by giving him to us. we killed him, not god. remember that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 6:40 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 7:13 PM jar has not replied
 Message 111 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:03 AM jar has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 103 of 202 (252480)
10-17-2005 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by iano
10-17-2005 8:30 AM


Re: Jesus the whipped King
Legend writes:
Jesus is royalty. He is "Lord of all". He was punished instead of us - us being whoever believes in what he did for them. He is our Redeemer...or our Judge. Each man will experience him as one or the other - whether they think he exists or not.
...
Alright, I detect you're ready to concede (Rom 9.9-12) that Christ arose and ascended on high as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Then would you say His sacrifice need be remembered as much as His resurrection and/or His ascension unto the Majesty on high? (1Cor15.1-3 and Heb 1)
In other words, I puke at movies (like the Passion) which hypocrytically show *the whipping boy* with virtually no eternal power whatsoever. The *resurrection* seemed an incidental add-on to the seemingly arbitrary event portrayed by this movie and most evangelicals I know.
Yet scriptures are clear to me (Rom 9.10, 1Cor 15) that Christ's gospel and/or forgiveness require resurrection power, rebirth and/or ascension into Holy places (by a Holy spirit), NOT JUST ATONEMENT (pardon the caps)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 8:30 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:05 AM Philip has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 104 of 202 (252481)
10-17-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
10-17-2005 5:09 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
Can God exist and not exist?
god can choose to not exist if he wants. maybe he has.
read on to verse 50 where he says to her: "Thy faith has saved thee" And interesting juxtapostion by the way, of forgiveness and salvation and faith don't you think?
And you'll see this over and over again in his forgiving and his healing. Faith is there in attendance.
certainly not the faith in jesus's death -- just in who he was. here's some forgiven for LOVE, not faith:
quote:
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
here's how to be forgive: forgive others.
quote:
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
where is faith mentioned?
As i pointed out above. God is constrained by the impossibility of acting counter to himself.
not so. god cannot act counter to himself any more than you or i can. something can only act in counter to something ELSE. if i do something, it was obviously not contrary to my nature, was it?
but yet what you're proposing is that god DID act counter to himself. you're arguing that he is just and upright, but punished an innocent man. you're arguing that god cannot not-exist, but that he killed himself. pick an argument.
Jesus never forgave willy nilly.
remember the passage i posted above?
quote:
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
what did he ask of her before he forgave her? he told her to sin no more after saying he did not condemn her, not before. no conditions, no faith, no love. nothing.
Why. Could you elaborate?
for god to work against himself. if he's gonna forgive, just forgive. why would he have to skirt his own rules? are god's rules more powerful than god is?
As I pointed out elsewhere (maybe to you). Forgiveness ALWAYS involves self-sacrifice. You can't forgive without you being the one to pay the price. No matter what it is.
ok let's play this one out.
i trip, and fall, and while i'm off balance and flailing for something to steady myself on, i accidentally clock you and break your noise.
i say "gosh, iano, i'm sorry. i didn't mean to inflict such bodily harm on you."
you say "that's ok really. it's an accident, could have happened to anyone. i forgive you."
then, what. do you go off and whip yourself a few times? do you give me your coat? where's the self-sacrifice?
...in the broken nose, the original infraction. the sacrifice is NOT demanding anything in return. what am i gonna do, give you my nose?
uh, you're saying we're being damned because of the sin of another?
The child of a mother with AIDs is bo...
whoah, whoah. wait. you're giving me an analogy when i gave you a bible verse that says that no man can be put to death for the sins of his father? look, here it is again:
quote:
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
i can do this all day. posturing, apologism, interpretation, and analogy don't change what the bible says.
The child of a mother with AIDs is born with AIDs. The child is infected with the disease. We were infected with the disease of sin. We sin because the disease we are infected with ensures we do. Fair/unfair is about as useless a discussion to have with a child infected with AIDs as it is to have with us who are infected with sin.
no, try this one. we're born with blood. that makes us susceptible to aids. the ability to catch aids is a human condition. tendency to sin is a human condition.
it is totally possible to never sin. enoch and arguably job never sinned. jesus never sinned. justifaction under the law IS possible, without sacrifice, just incredibly unlikely.
"The wages of sin is death" You'd imagine that would grab our attention.
"president bush eats babies" grabs our attention too. doesn't make it true. you wanna look at that statement closely?
some sins in leviticus demand death. most do not; they demand sacrifice. some of the sacrifices that would have been acceptable were flour and oil, if you're too broke to afford a flock.
so tell me, if the lord accepts the sacrifice of a poor man that doesn't remotely involve killing something, where does paul get off saying god want's us to die?
quote:
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
especially when, according to the psalmist, it's not even required.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:32 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 114 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 105 of 202 (252484)
10-17-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by iano
10-17-2005 5:19 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
PD writes:
Er...Because the OT is where the law was given.
Er...Sermon on the mount?
"The Law" = The Torah. the law is the mosaic code, given in exodus and leviticus, and again in deuteronomy. that's what the word means when used in this context.
jesus delivered beatitudes and blessings, and interpretted parts of the law. but the law itself is the law of moses.
and jesus did not speak of following the law to the letter; jesus spoke of having your heart in the right place.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:55 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
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