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Author | Topic: What is The Atonement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
if jesus LIVED for anything.... yes, that's true, and where the focus should be. but we were talking about his death.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
iano writes:
It isn't a fact just because iano says it is. Accepted fact has nothing at all to do with it. Accepted fact means it is fact because many think it so. Fact doesn't rely on anybody accepting it. Fact is fact even if noone thinks it so. I'm afraid you are missing the point. If tradition says that something is fact, then it is okay to just assert that. For the justification for the claim of factuality can also be found in the traditions. When you assert something as fact, for which there is no support in the traditions nor in scripture, then you have a responsibility to provide some support for your claim that it is fact. The responsibility is even greater when the alleged fact defies common sense. Thus far I do not see you as having met that responsibility.
I asked what was the point of the cross if God can ignore sin.
I honestly don't see the relevance. The crucifixion was the work of man, not the work of God. To say that it had a point is to claim that God engineered the crucifixion. To me, that seems almost heretical.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
iano writes: But if the person won't accept it then God can't make them. This is where the salvation by works gig hits the wall. God is saying "I'll pay for the lamp (Jesus). And we say "No (hic) way, shure I paysh for ish" The trouble is we ain't got the $6000.
Legend writes: ahh...here's the catch! Unfortunately (for you) forgiveness does not depend on the person that is forgiven. It is the prerogative of the offended party only. Forgiveness is not an offer! Lets look at forgiveness in a more biblical setting: A defendent is brought up to court on serious charges. There are plenty of witnesses and the prosecution case is easily made. There is no defence. The Judge finds the defendant guilty and pronounces sentence. $100,000 fine or prison until the $100,000 is paid. The defendant is trapped. If in prison he can't earn the 100,000 dollars to pay the fine. And he hasn't got $100,000 now either. Then the Judge does something unusual. He step steps down from the bench, takes out his chequebook and proceeds to write out a cheque for $100,000. He walks across the court and offers the cheque to the defendant in the dock. The defendant can choose to take it or not This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 11:07 AM
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
PD writes: In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus does not speak of following the Mosaic Law perfectly (without flaw). Jesus only ever said "do". He never said nor implied "try". "If you look at a woman lustfully you have..""If you are angry with your brother, you have" "Love God with all your heart.." "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself" "Do" this, that and the other and you will be saved. The question is do you do it? If not, where is the bit where not doing will result in salvation. It doesn't exist.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Arach writes: doesn't follow. christ has already died, he can't die less or die more. I didn't say die more or less. I said suffer more or less. How can your sins today be punished in him then if not in the eternal realm?
christ died for all the sins of mankind, right? so i make up maybe one trillionth of that suffering, little as it was. and an individual sin an even smaller fraction. what does one sin matter? Your assuming your sin is a small thing but you have no way of knowing Gods view - except perhaps to be aware that the 'smallest' sin warrants death. Consider the consequences of eating 1 apple for a moment...
romans is a fun book indeed. funny, christ spoke of life, not death. The point is that it totally neglects what a proper faith should be. paul paints the law as a burden, something demanding our punishment and execution. I think your missing the overall message of Romans to whit: Everybody is born a sinner, dead in their transgression and sins, enemies of God, hating Gods laws, all have fallen short of the glory of God, spiritually blind, not able to know God, not able to please God etc, etc. Everbody is born this way. All have default Hell stamped on them. What happens to a person who comes to believe is that this 'old man' is put to death. The old sinful nature, the one that has the characteristics listed above, the one we were born with - is put to death, crucified in Christ. And a righteous spirit is born. A spirit that is alive to Christ, alive to God, at peace with God, not subject to condemnation. Paul is talking about death alright. Death of the old, sinful man. Man under the condemnation of Law. Man subject to the Judgement that comes with disobeying the Law. But he doesn't stop there as you do. The bit you miss is talk of new life. You miss (why I do not know) the other half of what Paul says. He's contrasting all the way through Romans. The man in Adam vs. the man in Christ. The man after the flesh vs. the man after the Spirit. The man who is in emnity with God vs. the man who has peace with God. The man subject to the Law of sin and death vs, the man subject to the law of Spirit and life. "The wages of sin is death...but what about the other half of the verse "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: if jesus LIVED for anything, it was to show us that. god sacrificed him by giving him to us. we killed him, not god. remember that. If you take Gods repsonsibilty out of it you might as well go the whole way. We didn't kill him, the Romans did.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Hi Philip
Your quoting Legend in your post but it was me. I take it it's Legend your talking to?
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Arach writes: god can choose to not exist if he wants. maybe he has. Now if God choses not to exist, then he would (if he is able to do ANYTHING..as you suggest) be able to re-exist again. But how can something that doesn't exist make himself re-exist?
certainly not the faith in jesus's death -- just in who he was. here's some forgiven for LOVE, not faith: In the same way your sins can be forgiven in Christ now although he died then, her sins can be forgiven in Christ even though he had yet to die. Eternity isn't limited by time.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: where is faith mentioned? It's not mentioned. Because this is Law. And you, nor I nor anyone can follow it. Ever judged anyone Arach? Ever condemned anyone? Ever not forgiven someone? An answer in the affirmative is a given. Thus Arach, you will be judged and not forgiven - according to the Law. Unless you are freed from the Law of sin and death. "And if the son makes you free, you will be free indeed"
iano writes: As i pointed out above. God is constrained by the impossibility of acting counter to himself.
arach writes: not so. god cannot act counter to himself any more than you or i can. Read it again. We're saying the same thing in fact. God cannot act counter to his himself. Counter to his nature
but yet what you're proposing is that god DID act counter to himself. you're arguing that he is just and upright, but punished an innocent man. you're arguing that god cannot not-exist, but that he killed himself. pick an argument. God punished sin in Christ. As he will punish sin in us (if we insist on possessing it). Sin is what is punished. Its the person who happens to be bearing it that suffers. Did you read the drug analogy. Our law punishes the possessor of the cocaine. The cocaine can change possession and the new possessor recieve the punishment instead of the original possessor. Christ was punished because he took our sin into his possession. Nothing unjust about it in the least. (edit: just a note to point out the OT picture of sacrificing a spotless lamb. The sins of the people were transferred to the sacrifice and the sacrifice slaughtered instead of the people. Just a picture of what was to come) Jesus died physically. Jesus as a man died physically. Jesus as a God was separated from the Fathers loving presence and experienced the Fathers wrath against the sin he possessed. He wasn't destroyed or cease to exist. Neither will those who go to hell cease to exist. Their human bodies will die but they will experience separation from all that is good about God (stuff we take for granted now) and only know his wrath. This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 12:35 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
arach writes: Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. What did she call him again?
I trip, and fall, and while i'm off balance and flailing for something to steady myself on, i accidentally clock you and break your noise. Wheres the accident? You weren't paying attention, looking where you were going. You know that if you do this then 'accidents' can happen and that people can get hurt. You didn't know the exact consequences but it was no accident. And I'm hurt. Under Law (an eye for an eye) I'm entitled to smack you in the nose. But I don't. I forgive. I take the consequences of your inattention but sacrifice my right to have justice. Sacrifice an Eye for an Eye.
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. You got an infection (a sinful nature) from your father - Adam. But it's not the infection that will be punished - its the sin. And that sin is your own. No conflict here.
it is totally possible to never sin. enoch and arguably job never sinned. jesus never sinned. Enoch and Job sinned alright. Righteous in Gods sight doesn't mean a man never sins. Jesus never sinned, that much is correct. But he is unique: the purpose of the virgin birth was to break the sinful nature infected line from Adam
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Arach writes: Jesus did not speak of following the law to the letter; jesus spoke of having your heart in the right place. Arachs "Salvation by having your heart in the right place" Jars "damnation by not trying hard enough" Where are these concepts laid out in the bible?
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Legend Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
iano writes: Then the Judge does something unusual. He step steps down from the bench, takes out his chequebook and proceeds to write out a cheque for $100,000. He walks across the court and offers the cheque to the defendant in the dock. The defendant can choose to take it or not Poor analogy, on so many counts. The Judge offering to pay the fine is an act of mercy, not an act of forgiveness. You can't forgive if you've not been offended against. The accused broke the law (which is above the Judge), he didn't personally act against the Judge. You can't forgive if you've not been offended. Your lampstand analogy was much more suitable. We broke God's lampstand. Has God forgiven us, yes or no ? *EDIT* for spelling. This message has been edited by Legend, 10-18-2005 08:00 AM "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jesus death most certainly an act of Man, not of GOD.
The sacrifice was God becoming Man, not Jesus death. Jesus was born to die, like all other men. If he had not been crucified he'dmost likely died an old man in bed, Mary beside him and a glass of very good wine on the nightstand. To say that GOD killed God does not make very much sense unless the God is stupid or absurd. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jars "damnation by not trying hard enough" Please point out where I said that. Since you placed in quotes I assume you also know the post. I have pointed that out to you several times. It is based on the two Great Commandments and Matthew 25 (as well as John 3 and other places). Judgement will be based on what you do, not what you say. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: The sacrifice was God becoming Man, not Jesus death. Jesus was born to die, like all other men. If he had not been crucified he'dmost likely died an old man in bed, Mary beside him and a glass of very good wine on the nightstand. How (biblically) could he have died? He had no sinful nature and he never sinned.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He became MAN. Human. Human's die.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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