What is The Atonement?

yes, that's true, and where the focus should be. but we were talking about his death.

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אָרַח

It isn't a fact just because iano says it is.I'm afraid you are missing the point. If tradition says that something is fact, then it is okay to just assert that. For the justification for the claim of factuality can also be found in the traditions. When you assert something as fact, for which there is no support in the traditions nor in scripture, then you have a responsibility to provide some support for your claim that it is fact. The responsibility is even greater when the alleged fact defies common sense. Thus far I do not see you as having met that responsibility. I honestly don't see the relevance. The crucifixion was the work of man, not the work of God. To say that it had a point is to claim that God engineered the crucifixion. To me, that seems almost heretical.

Lets look at forgiveness in a more biblical setting:A defendent is brought up to court on serious charges. There are plenty of witnesses and the prosecution case is easily made. There is no defence. The Judge finds the defendant guilty and pronounces sentence. $100,000 fine or prison until the $100,000 is paid.The defendant is trapped. If in prison he can't earn the 100,000 dollars to pay the fine. And he hasn't got $100,000 now either.Then the Judge does something unusual. He step steps down from the bench, takes out his chequebook and proceeds to write out a cheque for $100,000. He walks across the court and offers the cheque to the defendant in the dock.The defendant can choose to take it or notThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 11:07 AM

Jesus only ever said "do". He never said nor implied "try"."If you look at a woman lustfully you have.."
"If you are angry with your brother, you have"
"Love God with all your heart.."
"Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself""Do" this, that and the other and you will be saved.The question is do you do it? If not, where is the bit where not doing will result in salvation. It doesn't exist.

I didn't say die more or less. I said suffer more or less. How can your sins today be punished in him then if not in the eternal realm? Your assuming your sin is a small thing but you have no way of knowing Gods view - except perhaps to be aware that the 'smallest' sin warrants death. Consider the consequences of eating 1 apple for a moment... I think your missing the overall message of Romans to whit:Everybody is born a sinner, dead in their transgression and sins, enemies of God, hating Gods laws, all have fallen short of the glory of God, spiritually blind, not able to know God, not able to please God etc, etc. Everbody is born this way. All have default Hell stamped on them.What happens to a person who comes to believe is that this 'old man' is put to death. The old sinful nature, the one that has the characteristics listed above, the one we were born with - is put to death, crucified in Christ. And a righteous spirit is born. A spirit that is alive to Christ, alive to God, at peace with God, not subject to condemnation.Paul is talking about death alright. Death of the old, sinful man. Man under the condemnation of Law. Man subject to the Judgement that comes with disobeying the Law. But he doesn't stop there as you do. The bit you miss is talk of new life.You miss (why I do not know) the other half of what Paul says. He's contrasting all the way through Romans. The man in Adam vs. the man in Christ. The man after the flesh vs. the man after the Spirit. The man who is in emnity with God vs. the man who has peace with God. The man subject to the Law of sin and death vs, the man subject to the law of Spirit and life."The wages of sin is death...but what about the other half of the verse "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"

If you take Gods repsonsibilty out of it you might as well go the whole way. We didn't kill him, the Romans did.

Hi PhilipYour quoting Legend in your post but it was me. I take it it's Legend your talking to?

Now if God choses not to exist, then he would (if he is able to do ANYTHING..as you suggest) be able to re-exist again. But how can something that doesn't exist make himself re-exist? In the same way your sins can be forgiven in Christ now although he died then, her sins can be forgiven in Christ even though he had yet to die. Eternity isn't limited by time. It's not mentioned. Because this is Law. And you, nor I nor anyone can follow it. Ever judged anyone Arach? Ever condemned anyone? Ever not forgiven someone? An answer in the affirmative is a given. Thus Arach, you will be judged and not forgiven - according to the Law.Unless you are freed from the Law of sin and death. "And if the son makes you free, you will be free indeed" Read it again. We're saying the same thing in fact. God cannot act counter to his himself. Counter to his nature God punished sin in Christ. As he will punish sin in us (if we insist on possessing it). Sin is what is punished. Its the person who happens to be bearing it that suffers. Did you read the drug analogy. Our law punishes the possessor of the cocaine. The cocaine can change possession and the new possessor recieve the punishment instead of the original possessor. Christ was punished because he took our sin into his possession.Nothing unjust about it in the least.(edit: just a note to point out the OT picture of sacrificing a spotless lamb. The sins of the people were transferred to the sacrifice and the sacrifice slaughtered instead of the people. Just a picture of what was to come)Jesus died physically. Jesus as a man died physically. Jesus as a God was separated from the Fathers loving presence and experienced the Fathers wrath against the sin he possessed. He wasn't destroyed or cease to exist.Neither will those who go to hell cease to exist. Their human bodies will die but they will experience separation from all that is good about God (stuff we take for granted now) and only know his wrath.This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 12:35 PM

What did she call him again? Wheres the accident? You weren't paying attention, looking where you were going. You know that if you do this then 'accidents' can happen and that people can get hurt. You didn't know the exact consequences but it was no accident. And I'm hurt. Under Law (an eye for an eye) I'm entitled to smack you in the nose. But I don't. I forgive. I take the consequences of your inattention but sacrifice my right to have justice. Sacrifice an Eye for an Eye. You got an infection (a sinful nature) from your father - Adam. But it's not the infection that will be punished - its the sin. And that sin is your own. No conflict here. Enoch and Job sinned alright. Righteous in Gods sight doesn't mean a man never sins. Jesus never sinned, that much is correct. But he is unique: the purpose of the virgin birth was to break the sinful nature infected line from Adam

Arachs "Salvation by having your heart in the right place"Jars "damnation by not trying hard enough"Where are these concepts laid out in the bible?

Poor analogy, on so many counts.The Judge offering to pay the fine is an act of mercy, not an act of forgiveness. You can't forgive if you've not been offended against. The accused broke the law (which is above the Judge), he didn't personally act against the Judge. You can't forgive if you've not been offended.Your lampstand analogy was much more suitable.We broke God's lampstand. Has God forgiven us, yes or no ?*EDIT* for spelling.This message has been edited by Legend, 10-18-2005 08:00 AM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Jesus death most certainly an act of Man, not of GOD.The sacrifice was God becoming Man, not Jesus death. Jesus was born to die, like all other men. If he had not been crucified he'dmost likely died an old man in bed, Mary beside him and a glass of very good wine on the nightstand.To say that GOD killed God does not make very much sense unless the God is stupid or absurd.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please point out where I said that. Since you placed in quotes I assume you also know the post.I have pointed that out to you several times. It is based on the two Great Commandments and Matthew 25 (as well as John 3 and other places).Judgement will be based on what you do, not what you say.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How (biblically) could he have died? He had no sinful nature and he never sinned.

He became MAN. Human. Human's die.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion