Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts

And therein lies the rub. The standard against which all is measured is a standard which has not been calibrated to indicate that it is a true standard against which to measure.Putting a dead true straight-edge against a very imperfect, warped "straight"edge and declaring the dead straight to be warped is to be expected if the warped is considered true in the first place.So which is the warped reality: ours or the bibles. And how does one figure this?

That's easy enough. It will of course depend on the specifics.For example, the Creation Myths are both mutually exclusive and do not correspond to reality. The Earth is more than 6000 years old.GOD, if GOD exists is neither stupid nor vainglorious.The Bible is but a human construct. It is neither GOD nor even a record written by GOD. The Universe is far more directly the hand of GOD and a record than any anthology could ever be.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's exactly what I've been saying: for the purpose of this discussion, you and I are both assuming that the Bible has been handed down to us, word-for-word, as if dictated by God Herself. Nonetheless, that epistle was addressed to the church of Rome and deliverd to the church of Rome. It is a mistake to extrapolate what Paul said to the Romans, as if it was universally applicable. If you think what he said was universally applicable to all Christians, show us where he said the same things (i.e. about condemnation) in his other epistles. In case you can't see it, my hand is up. Just over the horizon, I think I can see that jar's hand is up too. I see a lot of hands up.No, we don't succeed in following those commandments 100% all the time. Show us in the Bible where it says we have to be 100% successful.I don't know how to make it any plainer: Jesus said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets."You have not addressed that point: ALL THE LAW. There is no need for any "explanation" by Paul. ALL THE LAW consists of loving God and loving thy neighbour. And nothing is said about a 100% success rate.You can complain all you like about the idea of "trying" to keep the law, but you haven't shown where the Bible says anything else. Since the Bible makes it quite plain that we are not perfect, it stands to reason that perfection is not required of us.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

It sure will. But the question was how do we figure our reality is the straightedge? The bible doesn't say the earth is 6000 years old. It can be read that way by some. But clear on this it is not (see EvCforum.net) The Universe may tell us there is a God and he is something else. But it won't tell us a thing about salvation and how one gets itYour wiggling Jar What use the bible for anything if none of it is to be considered accurate?

It's a map, a guide.But GOD never expected us to check our brains at the door.When the map says the bridge is fine but we can see it's been washed away, it is foolish to simply drive across.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

edit to delete: double postThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 10:22 AM

Another map reader blows himself and others up in an israeli disco. Why is his map reading ability (or reality standard) less correct than yours. He sees bridges down in a different way to you. Is his way as valid as yours?

What makes you think he's a map reader? It sounds far more like he is the typical Literalist and Fundamentalist.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

"Sounds like" to you. And you "sound like" to him etc etc. Point being your approach is as subjective as his.Without any firm mooring (even if only assumed for the sake of discussion) then discussion is impossible due to "that bit isn't true and this bit is" being totally arbitary and personal - measured against what ever reality happens to be in force todayNot much fun in that so.... see you around Jar

Reality is reality. The sum of your sensory inputs is YOUR reality.If YOUR reality matches that of the rest of the world then it becomes OUR realityA book is not reality. It just projects an image.If that image doesn't match OUR reality, then the book is warped.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Phew. You wouldn't believe how rarely I've heard those words spoken. You can be 20 messages in with discussion then someone says..well Pauls writings are corrupted etc. Why attempt to? If Romans is not to be extrapolated outside that bunch of Christians then why Galations or Thessalonians. Why extrapolate even the words Jesus spoke to the woman at the well to apply to any other than the woman at the well?You ask later to show where the bible says follow all the law. But if the bible isn't seen relevant to you there is little point in quoting from it.

reality is not defined by saying "Reality is reality"We are more than the sum of our sensory inputs. Remove them and I still have a reality5 witnesses to an accident will give 5 different accounts. There is no such thing as OUR reality. Harmony, accordance, disharmony, discordance in varying measures. No OUR. No collective reality6,000,000,000 people reading Jars 'map'. Each one as valid as the other cos there is nothing objective to compare any of them to.1 book cannot match 6,000,000,000 realities...but one shouldn't point the finger at the book

Remove all sensory input, and you will very likely die.

Sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing.Losing all isn't fatalThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 02:25 PM

There is also a lot of sensory input from proprioception - internal signals about the state of the body.