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Author | Topic: Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
It may be impossible for God to lie, but he does it anyway:
Numbers 14:30 KJV - Doubtless ye shall not come into the - Bible Gateway;2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 KJV - And for this cause God shall send them - Bible Gateway; 1 Kings 22:21-23 KJV - And there came forth a spirit, and - Bible Gateway; "A rock so heavy..."
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Funkaloyd writes: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. It would be helpful if you point out the lie in your links FL. In one of them God sends a delusion in order that someone would believe a lie. Now if you can just produce the bit where the lie itself eminates from God, instead of someone else it would be helpful to making your point. A bare quote by itself won't cut it.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6517 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
It would be helpful if you point out the lie in your links FL. In one of them God sends a delusion in order that someone would believe a lie. Now if you can just produce the bit where the lie itself eminates from God, instead of someone else it would be helpful to making your point. A bare quote by itself won't cut it. iano, your a smart guy, certainly you know that you don't have to acctually commit the crime to be held accountable for it. If I hire a hit man to kill someone, I'm just as guilty as the hitman. If god, all knowing as he is, intentionaly sends dellusions to people in order that they fall for certain (unspecified) lies, god is accomplice to an evil act. He is lying. Besides, delusions in and of themselves are a sort of lie. And god is sending them:
de·lu·sion Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn)
n. 1.1. The act or process of deluding. 2. The state of being deluded. 2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand. 3. Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
In addition to what Yaro said: recall that Arach, in starting this sub-topic, stated that "the bible also depicts god using others to lie for him".
Except that it's (just another) Biblical contradiction, I don't see why God lying poses a problem for you. It doesn't necessarily mean that "God can murder and all the rest"; that God lied simply means that God can lie. Perhaps, as with killing people, lying isn't bad when God does it?
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
As always, the verse quoted needs to taken in context. This is relevant piece in Thessalonians. The piece deals with the end times when a "man of lawlessness" will rise up (a great leader - but of satan)
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. God is going to make certain people believe anothers lie on order to achieve a goal. These people are to perish already. God is ensuring a certain part of the process of damnation is put in place. Condemnation. He is simply carrying out the process of condemning the damned - they are already lost at this point. The delusion is a functional issue not a material one. He is turning satans own weapons on those who follow satan. And it makes me sick to think about it to be frank. Not because God is wrong. It's just going to be horrific s'all "Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6517 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
The delusion is a functional issue not a material one. He is turning satans own weapons on those who follow satan. Ok, I can buy that, but a lie is a lie is a lie. Even if done for good intentions None the less, this is not the only instance where this has occured. I seem to recall a portion in the Old Testament, I think it was Iseah or something. God is said to have put a lying heart into someone... I'll have to look it up.
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Ever taken magic mushroom Yaro? No? Then let me tell you that delusion forms a central part in the trip. Are the drugs a lie? Nope. The chemicals mix with those in your brain to form another reality from the normal one.
Our reality is purely what God gives us as reality. God gives it, God takes it away. God is under no obligation to us to give anything. He is not lying by taking something away. He is exercising sovereignty. In the situation mentioned in Thessalonians, the case is already closed. Those people are to perish before God deludes them (or takes away normal reality) If it wasn't and God deluded so as to materially affect the persons chances of salvation then lying comes into it... p.s. The last thing I would want to see in the unlikely event that I were to take mushrooms again would be that avatar of yours. Bad trip Maaann
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
In addition to what Yaro said: recall that Arach, in starting this sub-topic, stated that "the bible also depicts god using others to lie for him". yes. clearly, lying in accordance with the will of god.
Except that it's (just another) Biblical contradiction, I don't see why God lying poses a problem for you. It doesn't necessarily mean that "God can murder and all the rest"; that God lied simply means that God can lie. Perhaps, as with killing people, lying isn't bad when God does it? that's really the point. when we kill, it's bad. when god kill's, it's his JOB. why is lying any different? the law is for us, not for god. god is above the law, as i explained earlier.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Your using human understanding of death in your thinking. Understandable but not the complete picture...as Genesis will demonstrate. who me any other understanding of death in the book of genesis? or heck, i'll be generous, the entire old testament. you see, god makes extra clear he means DEATH. you know how he does it? the same way you just did:
As far as you're concerned, death means dying, physical death. The one we all know about. repitition. he says "you will SURELY die" but the literal hebrew repeast the word death for emphasis, something that doesn't work in english. he wan't adam to know he means DEATH, as in DEATH, so me makes extra-special care to spell it out.
The full sum of death, the whole show...means separation from God. clearly they are not equatable. first of all, god wasn't around all the time the garden -- otherwise adam wouldn't have HAD the opportunity to eat. so there was some separation from god even then.
What is the first thing that Adam does when he sins? He hides from God. Why? Separation. no, because he knew after he had done that he had done something bad, so he hid in SHAME and FEAR. god, afterall, had threatened him with death.
guilt came in with its usual attendant (excuses, blaming Eve) read it again. adam doesn't blame eve:
quote: it's not MY fault god, the woman YOU gave me made me do it. it's a mistake to think eve is treated with enough respect to assign her blame. no, adam blames god for putting the woman there.
"The wages of sin is death.." Adam earned these wages. the wage of sin is NOT death. read leviticus. and the fundamental irony here is that this is what this debate is about: god said he'd kill adam. god did not kill adam.
God fulfilled his promise - the day Adam sinned surely, adam did not die the day he ate of the tree. if he had, the rest of the bible doesn't happen.
Adam and Eve eventually dying. that's not what it says, is it. it says "in the day that you eat" -- "WHEN you eat" as soon as they eat. it says nothing about EVENTUAL death, it describes IMMEDIATE death. adam and eve eventually died because they had the tree or life withheld from them. in that sense, god did sentance them to eventual death, but it's not the same immediate death he threatened them with.
No record of them ever enjoying that same level of intimacy with God again. lots of other people seem to in the bible.
He did not lie. it's a lie, and one we should be very thankful for. this lie is god FORGIVING people.
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christ_fanatic Inactive Member |
We're starting to get off track here, but I see your point. I heard a guy, no clue who, say that the more you behave a certain way, the less likely you will do anything contrary to that behavior. So the more God acts according to His standards, the less likely He will do anything contrary to it. Since He is eternal, and He said that He never changes, it's safe to say that He never does anything unrighteous. To the thought of a higher standard, the Christian God would no longer be the One and Only, automatically making Him a liar, and monotheism a farce. There is no logical way to overcome that idea, if you want to say that there is a higher standard than God.
But I got 2 other points to make: First, in my analysis of the story about Elisha on his way to Mt. Carmel, I made a couple mistakes. I trusted so callled scholars from Lee Strobel's Case for Faith, and I had forgotten the importance of what the "youths" were doing. They were insulting Elisha's prophethood, and Elisha must have gotten seriously ticked, because when they insulted him, they also insulted the One who appointed him (God). About Lot, he was called righteous, but no one in the OT would have been (nor did any of them claim to be) perfect. Its the old "we're all human" argument This message has been edited by christ_fanatic, 10-17-2005 09:24 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
arach writes: repitition. he says "you will SURELY die" but the literal hebrew repeast the word death for emphasis, something that doesn't work in english. he wan't adam to know he means DEATH, as in DEATH, so me makes extra-special care to spell it out. Death, death, death, death. How does repeating it affect it's definition? Most of your post goes on this assumption that "you will surely die" means physical death only. I disagree
the wage of sin is NOT death. read leviticus Why should I read Leviticus and ignore Romans
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Why should I read Leviticus and ignore Romans
Is Romans the only book you ever read? But seriously, nobody is suggesting that you should ignore Romans. You have to learn to harmonize it with the rest of the Bible. Just starting a sentence "Why should I read Leviticus...?" is a danger signal. Why should you read Leviticus? Because it's there. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
romans writes: Is Romans the only book you ever read? Nah..but it just happens to be my favorite. I'm a mechanical engineer. Romans is a very mechanical book. It kind of follows...
But seriously, nobody is suggesting that you should ignore Romans. You have to learn to harmonize it with the rest of the Bible. When someone says the wages of sin isn't death and the bible says the wages of sin is death I fail to see how you can harmonize that. Neither is every bit of the bible is saying the same thing in the same context as everything else so there is no need to harmonize every verse with every verse. "The wages of sin" is positioned in a book that is dealing, workshop handbook-like, with the mechanics of the gospel. Leviticus isn't doing that
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Romans is a very mechanical book. Yes. Pity. On the other hand, the Gospel is not mechanical.
... it just happens to be my favorite. I'm a mechanical engineer. Picking and choosing according to your own tastes, eh? Not exactly the best plan for Bible study.
When someone says the wages of sin isn't death and the bible says the wages of sin is death I fail to see how you can harmonize that. Ah, but even when you quote Romans, you're quoting out of context. Read the whole verse:
quote: We don't collect our wages, because of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift, freely given.
Neither is every bit of the bible is saying the same thing in the same context as everything else so there is no need to harmonize every verse with every verse. Actually, yes it is. There is one message and every verse is part of that message. In the broad sense, it is necessary to reconcile every verse with your overall understanding of the Bible.
"The wages of sin" is positioned in a book that is dealing, workshop handbook-like, with the mechanics of the gospel. The trouble is that you're concentrating on the death part and ignoring the Gospel part. That's where the "mechanical" analogy falls apart. From a mechanical standpoint, the Gospel makes no sense. There are no "mechanics" to the Gospel. God is just saying to us, "Here's a gift. Open it and enjoy it." People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Ringo writes: We don't collect our wages, because of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift, freely given. I agree completely. The issue is who is 'we' and how one becomes a 'we'
iano writes: Neither is every bit of the bible is saying the same thing in the same context as everything else so there is no need to harmonize every verse with every verse.
Ringo writes: Actually, yes it is. There is one message and every verse is part of that message. In the broad sense, it is necessary to reconcile every verse with your overall understanding of the Bible. Harmonizing every verse with the message is not the same as harmonizing every verse with every verse. I agree with the former, not the latter
There are no "mechanics" to the Gospel. God is just saying to us, "Here's a gift. Open it and enjoy it." I agree by and large. Do we have to accept the gift? What happens if we don't?. Opening any gift involves mechanics - just watch your kids lever and prise, tear and rip in a couple of months time This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 06:59 PM
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