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Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 202 (251678)
10-14-2005 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
10-13-2005 9:38 PM


Re: the christian guilt complex
I understand your plight. It surprises me how much your journey is similar to mine. Although I think you have better resources to draw on than I do, with your college classes, Hebrew etc. My personal journey led me to let go of Christianity.
quote:
i do not know how to reconcile this.
In my search back through the evolution of Christianity, I found the Nazarenes and I'm sure you have too.
The Nazarenes, actual disciples and followers of the living Jesus, did not believe that Jesus was God incarnate, they did not believe he was a sacrifice for sins. They were still Jewish and all that that entails.
If it doesn't reconcile, it doesn't reconcile.
I don't picture you taking up apologetics.
Christianity seems to be an ecclectic concoction of religions of the time. So either we take Christianity as it is presented or we don't.
Personally, I feel it makes more sense to make things right with the person you offend or harm. No one else can really do that for you.
Take care

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2005 9:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 10-14-2005 6:17 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 55 of 202 (252060)
10-15-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Legend
10-14-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
The idea of ransom (payment, bribe) shows up quite a bit in the OT stories.
quote:
1) Who paid this ransom?
According to this teaching Jesus paid the ransom.
quote:
2) Who received this ransom?
God
quote:
3) Who was set free?
Supposedly us, from sin, death, and hell. The OT scriptures don't really support that need though.
The teachings I have seen on this subject mix the ransom and sacrifice idea together. Ramoss explained the Jewish Sacrificial system in Message 4. IMO, they don't go together.
In Exodus we see the ransom being given to God.
Ex 30:12
When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
Satan works for God, so no need to pay him a ransom.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Legend, posted 10-14-2005 5:39 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 10-16-2005 9:51 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 202 (252156)
10-16-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Legend
10-16-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Jesus as a ransom is an absurd notion
quote:
1) God paid the ransom. God doesn't need to pay any ransom to anyone. To do so would imply that God abides by some external law that is beyond his power to control. And I'm not even going to go into the absurdity of someone paying a ransom to himself.
Keep in mind that the Nazarenes (actual followers of Jesus) did not believe that Jesus was God. He was human.
Yes the groups that claim Jesus is God create a problem when it comes to this teaching.
quote:
2) What exactly was the ransom? what was given away, i.e. lost, by the party who paid the ransom?
Supposedly Jesus gave his life, but that loses its impact since Jesus supposedly came back to life.
Now if you read the entire passage of Mark 10:35-45 where we have the following verse:
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
IMO, it isn't talking about giving up life as in death, but more like dedicating his life to serving others.
The verse in 1 Timothy 2:6 is when the idea of substitution was brought in.
2:6
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
The word for ransom in this verse is antilutron.
Antilutron
Basic Meaning: This word occurs only once in the New Testament (1 Tim. 2:6) and not at all in the Old Testament Septuagint. It is a combination of the preposition anti, “instead of, in place of, for,” and lutron, “ransom.”
The word for ransom in the Mark passage is lutron which seems to be indicative of personal payment. Not something that accounts for everyone.
1 Timothy is also not considered to Pauline and probably written after 100CE.
quote:
3) We are supposed to have been set free from sin, death, and hell. How exactly? Are we now even less susceptible to sin, death, and hell than before the ransom was paid?
Personally I don't see that we are. We still sin, we still die, and we are still buried.
IMO, the sacrifice and ransom theme is not a teaching from Jesus. Personally I feel it was a later concoction by gentiles who didn't really understand Judaism.
As you have noticed, it doesn't hang together.
Hopefully I haven't made this more confusing. I'm limited on time today, but wanted to get a few thoughts out.
Have a great day!

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 10-16-2005 9:51 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:24 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 66 of 202 (252354)
10-17-2005 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ramoss
10-13-2005 9:52 PM


Sin Against God
quote:
The Day of Atonement is set aside to ask forgivenes of god for 'sins' against god.
What sins are considered to be against God?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ramoss, posted 10-13-2005 9:52 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ramoss, posted 10-18-2005 2:05 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 76 of 202 (252407)
10-17-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by iano
10-17-2005 7:58 AM


Law To Be Kept Perfectly
quote:
The Law. The Legal Law that must be kept perfectly if one is to have a right to be declared righteous.
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 7:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 202 (252452)
10-17-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
10-17-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
quote:
PD writes:
Where does the OT specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?
Er.. why should we limit things to what the OT says?
Er...Because the OT is where the law was given.
When did God specify that the law was to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 2:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:19 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 202 (252461)
10-17-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Legend
10-17-2005 4:24 PM


Re: Jesus as a ransom is an absurd notion
quote:
In that context, I wonder whether Jesus's reference to ransom- if indeed he did say that- was a reference to a life of servitude, rather than any misconstrued sacrifice.
The word lost its meaning and context in the subsequent 'evolution' of Jesus's teachings that became the Christianity of today.
If you read Galations 4, which is an authentic Pauline epistle, Paul talks of the redeeming, as in, from slavery. It is not the same word used for ransom, but it seems to be more in line with the idea of freeing someone from slavery.
Unfortunately, I haven't found anything in what seems to be the actual teachings of Jesus to support the ransom/sacrifice teaching.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Legend, posted 10-17-2005 4:24 PM Legend has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 98 of 202 (252463)
10-17-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by iano
10-17-2005 5:19 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus does not speak of following the Mosaic Law perfectly (without flaw).

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by iano, posted 10-17-2005 5:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:13 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 126 of 202 (252705)
10-18-2005 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by iano
10-18-2005 6:13 AM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
So the OT does not specify that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous and Jesus did not state in the NT that the Mosaic Laws were to be kept perfectly (without flaw) to be declared righteous.
Neither God in the OT nor Jesus state that the Mosaic Law is impossible to follow perfectly (without flaw).
quote:
"If you look at a woman lustfully you have.."
That is not part of the Mosaic Law.
quote:
"If you are angry with your brother, you have"
Also not part of the Mosaic Law.
quote:
"Love God with all your heart.."
Oddly enough, this one isn't really a part of the Mosaic Law.
quote:
"Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself"
The law that pertains to this is
Le 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
The teaching was from Hillel as a summary of the Torah. Roughly, if you don't want it done to you, don't do it to others.
Mt 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Again what was said in the NT isn't really from the Mosaic Law.
quote:
"Do" this, that and the other and you will be saved.
This has nothing to do with my question, but it also does not summarize the Sermon on the Mount. I'm discussing whether the Law was required and/or impossible for individuals to follow perfectly (without flaw).
The Mosaic Laws also said "do" or "do not", but the fact that God forgave those who repented in the OT, shows that he did not expect people to always follow the Law perfectly (without flaw). God also did not imply that it is impossible for anyone to follow the Law perfectly (without flaw) and be considered righteous. There are people in the Bible who are considered righteous and blameless under the law.
Luke 1:5-6
In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly (free from fault or defect).
The Mosaic Laws were their legal system. Just like our legal system today. While it may be impossible for an entire nation to be perfectly law abiding all at one time, it is not impossible for one person to obey the laws perfectly (without flaw).

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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 Message 109 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:13 AM iano has not replied

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 Message 163 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:29 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 148 of 202 (252786)
10-18-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ramoss
10-18-2005 2:05 PM


Re: Sin Against God
quote:
Mainly anything of the rules that are described in Levatiucs.. there so so many, SOMEONE is bound to break them sometime.
I wasn't sure how specific they got.
quote:
The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the 'urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'.
From what I have read about the Native American spirituality, they also didn't believe that man was inherently evil. I don't buy into it either. I like the Jewish outlook better.
I haven't really been able to pinpoint when Christianity took that turn. The synoptics don't seem to support that thought.
I'll have to look at Paul's actual writings again to see if they support the idea or were misunderstood.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ramoss, posted 10-18-2005 2:05 PM ramoss has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 153 of 202 (252821)
10-18-2005 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
10-18-2005 4:13 PM


The Sinful Nature
quote:
Adam sinned, then sinful nature entered him as a disease. In that sense, the child (and everyone) is suffering in being infected with the same disease - a consequence of Adams action.
Where do you get this stuff from?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:33 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 202 (252857)
10-18-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
10-18-2005 4:33 PM


Re: The Sinful Nature
That's Paul's teaching though. Where does Jesus or Judaism present the idea of sin as a disease.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:39 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 174 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:25 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 180 of 202 (252968)
10-19-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:39 AM


Re: The Sinful Nature
quote:
actually, i;m not totally sure it's quite paul's teaching. the formalized modern concept of original sin, the disease one that iano is mentioning, comes from st augustine, i think.
The verse used to support the sinful nature idea, is Paul's. I don't feel that what Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans was meant to be taken as the word of God.
I'm never quite sure how to forumulate my thoughts concerning Paul.
IMO, Paul is the forerunner of the evangelists. I see him as a salesman and his letters are probably just a very small portion of his teaching. We don't really know what his physical teachings were.
Salesmen say what is necessary to make the sale. Their intent is to create the desired emotions within their audience. Paul does the same thing.
Some of his letters are letters that initiate contact and some are answers to questions or letters he has received. Unfortunately we don't have the questions or other letters.
Although Paul does have some good teachings within his writings, I have a problem with dogma and tradition that has been derived from his writings.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:39 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 183 of 202 (252987)
10-19-2005 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:29 AM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
Love God with all your heart...
quote:
nitpick: that's more or less the same thing as "no other gods before me." just kind of a reinterpretation/elaboration of the same concept.
Maybe the same concept but not part of the Law to which the Jews were held accountable and not a reasonable replacement for the original.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, according to Hillil, is a summary of the Torah, but the Jews are accountable to the details of the Law not the summary.
Unfortunately Christians don't have knowledge of the Oral Torah, which includes many of these finer points that Jesus was teaching people how to follow.
Talmud-Bava Mezia 58b: One who shames the face of his fellow, it is as if he has murdered him. (character assassination)
Talmud-Kallah,Ch. 1: One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.
These are rules that were already added by man since the "giving" of the Torah. Jesus was teaching Judaism, nothing new.
I guess my point of Message 126 is that these verses don't state that God expects the Law to be followed perfectly (without flaw). Since God provided for repentence and forgiveness, he expected people to screw up. After one is forgiven, one is righteous again.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:29 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 9:54 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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