Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible

What is murder, as opposed to killing? Could we get a working model of the biblical sense from our own experience,ie: murder is unrighteous killing - which is different to taking a life in war or by accident?God by definition, not us, defines ultimately, what is righteous and unrighteous. In order to say God murders (kills unrighteously) then you would have to be in a position to determine (with respect to some absolute standard - outside of God) that God was being unrighteous.But there is no standard above God by which Gods actions can be measured. Or if there you don't know what it is.Brian, you're just using human standards to measure God against. Putting human standards above Gods standards. Which is nonsense.

But a soldier deliberately killing someone is not considered murder. The idea of unrighteous killing seems to be required in there somewhere. God created us, thus any attribute we have is put into us by him. We might say that what he put into us is equal or usurps what he has/is. But we have no basis for saying that. That we are 'less' than God seems apparent in many ways. There is no reason to think different here. See above - deliberate on it's own is not murder. None of us know. We deal with what we do 'know'. In terms of this discussion God exists. He must in order to kill anyone. In terms of this discussion he created us. In terms of this discussion our standard is derived from his. His is the absolute standard for want of any evidence to the contrary - in terms of this discussion. Introducing other possibles without any evidence says nothing (whereas evidence is produced of his killing people) By what standard do you compare? If they are not innocent in Gods eyes then the killing is not unrighteous in his eyes. The question arises for him: are they innocent. And if he thinks 'no' and we think 'yes' then somebodies wrong. We don't know the whole story with which to weigh up innocence and guilt. He does. He is in a better position than us to make a correct call

God not being able to do something is not the same as God being restricted by something else from doing something. God cannotlie simply because there is nothing evil in him. Something which has no evil can do no wrong - by his own standard of course. God doesn't set the standard as such. He is it.We're just used to somebody else setting the standards for us. That's what it is to be human. But that doesn't mean God has to have the standards set for him. The buck stops with him so to speak.

Sin, literally, comes from an old archery expression which mean "to miss the mark" or "fall short of the target". When we sin we fall short of the standard that God sets for behaviour/actions. It includes the mosaic code, but also the law of conscience and also the elaboration that Jesus put on the Mosaic code during eg: his sermon on the mount. But so far we are in broad agreement. I have to disagree. The ten commandments were from God. He didn't pattern them after anyone. God didn't do it on a "I did this for you now you do this for me" They were simply commandments. "Do" because he is God and doesn't need to negotiate with us in the least. Neither was he doing so. Firstly, the 10 commandments aren't convenental - there is no "if you do this, I'll do that" God convenants are not necessarily treaties. Not all Gods convenants are consequential on man doing anything. God promising that he wouldn't again flood the whole world was one sided. It doesn't require anything from us. Similarily, his convenant to restore Israel doesn't rely on Israels performance for God to fulfill it. God is held. He can't lie for example. He would be falling short of his own standard (see later). When it comes to "thou shalt not kill", God is talking to man. But he has man kill man elsewhere. Either God is giving mixed messages or there is something different about killing when he does it or has men do it. God is righteous - ie: he is always right (given that he defines whats right). Thus God killing or directing to kill cannot be wrong - according to him. If man kills and it is a righeous (in Gods eyes) killing, then it isn't breaking a commandment. Which seems to me to point to the translations which say "thou shalt not murder" which we all take as being unrighteous killing Could you point these places where God lied for me to have a look at? If God can lie then God can murder and all the rest - so the key seems to lie there. Does God lie?

I've got a busy day today but will come back on your post. Just this piece to start with It sure did. Your using human understanding of death in your thinking. Understandable but not the complete picture...as Genesis will demonstrate. As far as you're concerned, death means dying, physical death. The one we all know about. Death, as far a the full biblical meaning is concerned is somewhat different. The full sum of death, the whole show...means separation from God.Before the fall, Adam and God enjoyed perfect harmony. God walked with Adam in the cool of the evening in the garden. There was no barrier between them. What is the first thing that Adam does when he sins? He hides from God. Why? Separation. The separation brought about by his sin. Shame came in (nakedness), guilt came in with its usual attendant (excuses, blaming Eve). "The wages of sin is death.." Adam earned these wages.God fulfilled his promise - the day Adam sinned. And it rolled on to completeness. Adam and Eve cast out from the garden. Adam and Eve eventually dying. No record of them ever enjoying that same level of intimacy with God again.He did not lie. Not here nor anywhere else

It would be helpful if you point out the lie in your links FL. In one of them God sends a delusion in order that someone would believe a lie. Now if you can just produce the bit where the lie itself eminates from God, instead of someone else it would be helpful to making your point. A bare quote by itself won't cut it.

As always, the verse quoted needs to taken in context. This is relevant piece in Thessalonians. The piece deals with the end times when a "man of lawlessness" will rise up (a great leader - but of satan) God is going to make certain people believe anothers lie on order to achieve a goal. These people are to perish already. God is ensuring a certain part of the process of damnation is put in place. Condemnation. He is simply carrying out the process of condemning the damned - they are already lost at this point.The delusion is a functional issue not a material one. He is turning satans own weapons on those who follow satan.And it makes me sick to think about it to be frank. Not because God is wrong. It's just going to be horrific s'all

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Ever taken magic mushroom Yaro? No? Then let me tell you that delusion forms a central part in the trip. Are the drugs a lie? Nope. The chemicals mix with those in your brain to form another reality from the normal one.Our reality is purely what God gives us as reality. God gives it, God takes it away. God is under no obligation to us to give anything. He is not lying by taking something away. He is exercising sovereignty.In the situation mentioned in Thessalonians, the case is already closed. Those people are to perish before God deludes them (or takes away normal reality) If it wasn't and God deluded so as to materially affect the persons chances of salvation then lying comes into it...p.s. The last thing I would want to see in the unlikely event that I were to take mushrooms again would be that avatar of yours. Bad trip Maaann

Death, death, death, death. How does repeating it affect it's definition? Most of your post goes on this assumption that "you will surely die" means physical death only. I disagree Why should I read Leviticus and ignore Romans

Nah..but it just happens to be my favorite. I'm a mechanical engineer. Romans is a very mechanical book. It kind of follows... When someone says the wages of sin isn't death and the bible says the wages of sin is death I fail to see how you can harmonize that. Neither is every bit of the bible is saying the same thing in the same context as everything else so there is no need to harmonize every verse with every verse. "The wages of sin" is positioned in a book that is dealing, workshop handbook-like, with the mechanics of the gospel. Leviticus isn't doing that

I agree completely. The issue is who is 'we' and how one becomes a 'we' Harmonizing every verse with the message is not the same as harmonizing every verse with every verse. I agree with the former, not the latter I agree by and large. Do we have to accept the gift? What happens if we don't?.Opening any gift involves mechanics - just watch your kids lever and prise, tear and rip in a couple of months timeThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 06:59 PM

Matthew 7:8
"For everyone that asks receives; and he that seeks finds and to him that knocks it shall be opened" The little word 'for' is important. 'For' indicates 'because' which is easily seen when we read the verse before.Promise...and God doesn't break promisesMatthew 7:7"Ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you"Instruction....I agree that this means salvation. Ask/Seek/Knock.
I disagree no mechanicsAsk... how?
Seek... how?
Knock... how?
Hear and do... how?Notice what happens to those who hears and doesn't do...

moved to Thous shall/shall notThis message has been edited by iano, 19-Oct-2005 02:45 PM

First we'll have to sort out what is the bible because elsewhere we have some disagreement about that.. How does placing an adjective on front of dead affect the definition of 'dead'. Tall is Tall. Very Tall doesn't adapt the meaning of Tall it just emphasizes how tall. The definition of dead biblically must come from the bible. And we're not out there so lets park it If Paul is in error then John in error. If John in error then his recording of Jesus is in error etc, etc. Discussion becomes farcical.Unless of course you decide to examine the alleged contradictions with respect to what the whole says. In which case discussion is possible. But in this case all scripture gets equal footing until the contradiction is demonstrated. ie: you show Gods word through Paul is less than Gods word through Jesus.