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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 106 of 204 (252695)
10-18-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by nwr
10-18-2005 9:56 AM


Re: There's only one Reality
You win

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by nwr, posted 10-18-2005 9:56 AM nwr has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 204 (252731)
10-18-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by iano
10-18-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
iano writes:
You can be 20 messages in with discussion then someone says..well Pauls writings are corrupted etc.
Don't get me wrong - I do think that either Paul's writings were corrupted or that his thinking was corrupted. But I am letting jar, et al. handle that side of the discussion.
My point is that the accuracy of Paul's epistles is not important to this discussion for two reasons:
1. What Paul said was targeted at specific audiences.
2. Nothing that Paul said can ever trump what Jesus said.
If Romans is not to be extrapolated outside that bunch of Christians then why Galations or Thessalonians.
Simple. You are trying to extrapolate Paul's specific message to the Romans into a general message for all Christians. If the same message was sent to the other churches, then it was clearly meant for all Christians.
For example: if I tell my five-year-old she has to be in bed by eight o'clock, does that automatically apply to my thirteen-year-old as well? Not if I tell my thirteen-year-old she can stay up till ten.
If Paul's comments to the Romans were meant for all, then show us where he said the same thing to everybody else.
You ask later to show where the bible says follow all the law.
No I don't. I ask you to show us where the Bible demands a 100% success rate in following the law.
When I send my thirteen-year-old to school, do you think I tell her, "If you don't get straight A's don't bother coming home"? Of course not. I tell her, "Do the best you can."
Why do you think God would treat His children worse than that?
But if the bible isn't seen relevant to you there is little point in quoting from it.
When did I ever say the Bible isn't relevant to me? Don't dodge the issue with that pretense. If the Bible backs up what you're saying, quote it.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 8:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 1:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 108 of 204 (252757)
10-18-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iano
10-18-2005 8:58 AM


Re: There's only one Reality
iano writes:
We are more than the sum of our sensory inputs. Remove them and I still have a reality
so if you can't see, hear, feel, smell or taste you still have a reality ? could you describe what would it consist of ?
iano writes:
5 witnesses to an accident will give 5 different accounts. There is no such thing as OUR reality. Harmony, accordance, disharmony, discordance in varying measures. No OUR. No collective reality
You're talking about temporary perception and interpretation of events, not reality. Witnesses may give different accounts because they had different sensory inputs, at that specific point in time. The witness further away from the scene might have not seen or heard everything that someone closer would have.
If, however, they get the same sensory input from the same sources, constantly, then that is THEIR reality.
So, if you put all the witness at the scene of the accident they would all see the smashed up Ford Fiesta, they would all smell the leaked fuel, they would feel the broken glass under the shoes. That would be their one and only reality.
iano writes:
6,000,000,000 people reading Jars 'map'. Each one as valid as the other cos there is nothing objective to compare any of them to.
So, if Jar's map said "If you jump of a bridge you will find yourself heading towards the ground, not away from it", you think there would be nothing objective to compare this against ?
If it said "count the number of legs on a locust, you'll find they are six" - do you think here would be nothing objective to compare this against ?
Maybe in your reality locusts have four legs and gravity doesn't exist.
In OUR reality however....

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 8:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 1:46 PM Legend has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 109 of 204 (252764)
10-18-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
10-18-2005 12:10 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
Ringo writes:
1. What Paul said was targeted at specific audiences.
So whenever talked to a gathering and didn't make any specific announcement that he was addressing all mankind we should ignore him too?
2. Nothing that Paul said can ever trump what Jesus said.
I don't suggest it does. But neither is there a need for it to - unless someone can find an area of conflict between them. You don't need to trump someone if you are giving the same message as them.
If Paul's comments to the Romans were meant for all, then show us where he said the same thing to everybody else.
Ditto Jesus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 2:21 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 110 of 204 (252766)
10-18-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Legend
10-18-2005 1:23 PM


Re: There's only one Reality
Legend writes:
so if you can't see, hear, feel, smell or taste you still have a reality ? could you describe what would it consist of ?
I could think, I could hum tunes in my head. I could design machines in my head. I'm not saying it would be ideal but I wouldn't necessarily change in essence. iano would be by an large iano
In OUR reality however....
That there are many crossovers and similarities doesn't make collective reality. Look at the human race: massive similarities on a wide range of fronts yet each and every one is different. No two people are the same, neither are two peoples realities. Even if they agree on the number of legs a locust has

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Legend, posted 10-18-2005 1:23 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nwr, posted 10-18-2005 1:54 PM iano has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 111 of 204 (252771)
10-18-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
10-18-2005 1:46 PM


Re: There's only one Reality
iano writes:
That there are many crossovers and similarities doesn't make collective reality. Look at the human race: massive similarities on a wide range of fronts yet each and every one is different. No two people are the same, neither are two peoples realities.
I am mildly amused at your relativism.
AFAIK most literalists are vigorously opposed to such relativism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 1:46 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 2:02 PM nwr has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 112 of 204 (252774)
10-18-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nwr
10-18-2005 1:54 PM


Re: There's only one Reality
What's a literalist?
Would they read the word 'death' and take the literal meaning of death: ie: death here means physical death.
Guess that makes me an illiteralist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nwr, posted 10-18-2005 1:54 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by nwr, posted 10-18-2005 5:29 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 204 (252784)
10-18-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by iano
10-18-2005 1:39 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
So whenever talked to a gathering and didn't make any specific announcement that he was addressing all mankind we should ignore him too?
No. We should take it in context:
quote:
Rom 1:1 Paul...
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome....
Romans is a letter specifically addressed to Rome. It's like an email specifically addressed to you. You're suggesting that it's like a post on a public forum.
You don't need to trump someone if you are giving the same message as them.
But you're claiming that Paul "explains" what Jesus said. You're claiming that that "explanation" is more important or more relevant than what Jesus actually said.
Once again: Jesus spoke about the spirit of the law. Paul took a step backward and spoke about the letter of the law. That had already been done, ad nauseum, since the Levites. In the context in which Paul was speaking, it may have been relevant, but in a general context it is a subtraction from what Jesus said, not an addition.
I asked you:
quote:
If Paul's comments to the Romans were meant for all, then show us where he said the same thing to everybody else.
to which you replied:
Ditto Jesus
Okay:
quote:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth....
Sounds pretty inclusive to me.
quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Remember what the will of His Father in heaven is? Love God and love thy neighbour.
quote:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock....
Sounds pretty inclusive to me.
Now, I've answered your question. Are you ever going to answer mine? Where does it say that Paul's comments to the Romans apply to everybody?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 1:39 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 10-18-2005 2:52 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 115 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 5:23 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 204 (252793)
10-18-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
10-18-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
There's a reason for the different divisions in the Bible. The Gospels are broadcasts, general broadsides to be delivered to all.
The Epistles on the other hand are letters addressed to specific targets dealing with specific issues. While they can certainly be of general use and instruction, that was never their intent. We can learn from them just as we can from reading the personal correspondencce of others, be it Lincoln, King George or Mark Twain.
Acts was meant to be a short synopsis of the early preachers as they went about building the franchise. It's a somewhat colored, nearly contemporary account, but was written too close to events to have the objectivity only time can bring. It would be similar to an account of the US Civil War written around the turn of the Century or a history of the Henry VIII's reign written while Mary Tudor was on the throne.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 2:21 PM ringo has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 115 of 204 (252833)
10-18-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
10-18-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
Ringo writes:
No. We should take it in context:
Is that it? On what specific basis do you decide that Jesus words are universal when he is speaking to specific people?
Romans is a letter specifically addressed to Rome. It's like an email specifically addressed to you. You're suggesting that it's like a post on a public forum.
I would apply the same logic as you posited for Jesus' specifically addressed words. Don't let his addressing a specific person deflect you. Take them in context. If he is talking to Christians in Rome about what makes them Christians and how Christian should carry themselves in the world - then I wouldn't see any reason to limit the instruction to a few Christians. If those Christians could be argued to have been saved by faith - then there is nothing to suppose it wouldn't apply to all Christians.
But lets flesh out the intro to Romans
5: " by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for (heres the reason...cue rolling drums....) obedience to the faith among ALL nations for his name"
6: AMONG WHOM are ye also called of Jesus Christ
At this point there was a small smattering of churches around the locality. But the apostleship was for all nations. How would this be accomplished I wonder - especially since the apostles didn't get to all nations in their lifetimes. The apostleship must thus live on after they died. How I wonder..could that be accomplished?
But you're claiming that Paul "explains" what Jesus said. You're claiming that that "explanation" is more important or more relevant than what Jesus actually said.
Matthew says "this is what Jesus said". (edit) Paul met Jesus too. I never said one was more important than the other. Me, I take all scripture as the word of God (which I understood you to do for the purposes of discussion). That would mean what Matthew records would be a pinpoint accurate recording of Jesus' words and what Paul writes would be pinpoint accurate commentary on and exposition of Jesus words as he received them.
I fail to see how one word of God could be more important than another word of God. Especially when both these writers had direct contact with Jesus. For that is one requirement in order to be called an apostle...
This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 10:27 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 2:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 5:58 PM iano has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 116 of 204 (252834)
10-18-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by iano
10-18-2005 2:02 PM


Re: There's only one Reality
Guess that makes me an illiteralist
I will cede that one to you iano

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 2:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:16 AM nwr has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 204 (252838)
10-18-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by iano
10-18-2005 5:23 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
iano writes:
On what specific basis do you decide that Jesus words are universal when he is speaking to specific people?
Ain't copy and paste wonderful?
quote:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man....
I can keep repeating it until you understand. He was talking about everybody who hears His sayings - and not just those who hear His sayings from His own lips either - everybody who hears His sayings, from whatever source. (Remember that Paul was not quoting Jesus - he was "explaining" Jesus.)
If he is talking to Christians in Rome about what makes them Christians and how Christian should carry themselves in the world - then I wouldn't see any reason to limit the instruction to a few Christians.
And I have been asking... and asking... and asking.... Where did Paul say the same things to other Christians? Did he say them to the Galatians? To the Thessalonians? How about the Ephesians? If what he said to the Romans was as wonderfully universal as you claim, simply show us where he said the same things to the other churches. (Remember that the specific topic that we are discussing here is condemnation under the law.)
I never said one was more important than the other.
I did. I said that Jesus said it is simple to fulfil the law: love thy neighbour as thyself. You seem to be arguing against that point, but all you have for a reference is Paul.
Do the math: Son-of-God > messenger-of-God.
I fail to see how one word of God could be more important than another word of God. Especially when both these writers had direct contact with Jesus.
So what if Paul had "direct contact" with Jesus? I'm quoting the actual words spoken by Jesus (to the best of anybody's knowledge, for the purpose of this discussion).
What Paul said was merely commentary. What Jesus said was the real thing.
This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-10-18 03:59 PM

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 5:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:13 AM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 118 of 204 (252942)
10-19-2005 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
10-18-2005 5:58 PM


Re: Blessing, not Condemnation
ringo writes:
Ain't copy and paste wonderful?
It would be better if we could just highlight the text and click a quote button. this qs stuff gets wearisome
I can keep repeating it until you understand
You cited an example Matthew 24. In Matthew 28 we see the people were astonished. Jesus was addressing a crowd. He was talking to them. You say...
..who hears His sayings, from whatever source.
But I don't read that in the text. We do know he was (like Paul) addressing certain people. You've assumed universal it but can you say why you've assumed it?
Where did Paul say the same things to other Christians? Did he say them to the Galatians? To the Thessalonians?
Can we not apply the same thinking to Jesus. He didn't say the same thing to everybody that he met. Why is Jesus not repeating himself and Paul not repeating himself seen as different.
Besides, these are letters that Paul wrote to places he'd (largely) been. He had already seen these people (and did see the people in Rome eventually). "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you..." The Galatians were introducing old legalism to the very Gospel that Paul had preached to them. He didn't need to write a letter explaining the Gospel to them - they'd heard it already first hand. The Romans on the other hand, hadn't seen Paul yet. Thus it was necessary to tell them what the gospel was..
I said that Jesus said it is simple to fulfil the law: love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus didn't say it was simple to fulfill the law. He said that the all the law and prophets was summed up in two commands. The greatest is:
Love God with all...
Love your neighbour as yourself
He never said it was simple. He never said it was hard. He just said "do". If anyone want to imply 'simple' or that he meant 'try' then by all means make a (biblical) case
iano writes:
I fail to see how one word of God could be more important than another word of God. Especially when both these writers had direct contact with Jesus.
ringo writes:
What Paul said was merely commentary. What Jesus said was the real thing.
You haven't addressed the issue. Both are the word of God. The deliverer in one case is Matthew, in the other Paul. How do you rank one word of God over another?
Also could you address the God-decreed "all nations" aspect of the apostleship when they weren't going to get to all nations in their lifetimes?
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Oct-2005 10:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 10-18-2005 5:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 10-19-2005 11:15 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 119 of 204 (252944)
10-19-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by nwr
10-18-2005 5:29 PM


Re: There's only one Reality
I will cede that one to you iano
Speaking of seed. Any of all this landing on fertile soil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by nwr, posted 10-18-2005 5:29 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by nwr, posted 10-19-2005 11:32 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 120 of 204 (252998)
10-19-2005 9:44 AM


iano writes:
Ask... how?
Seek... how?
Knock... how?
ringo writes:
If you really need detailed instructions on how to ask a question or how to knock on a door, you're going to have to ask somebdy with a lot more patience than me.
What question should we ask and who should we address it to - specifically
Seek what and how do we do that - specifically
Knock on what-specifically?
iano writes:
Hear and do... how?
ringo writes:
I have a feeling I've mentioned this before, but: Love thy neighbour as thyself. No rocket science involved.
So how does one live up to this command. Note it is a command. There is no "try" in here. On what basis is 'try' inserted, if inserted by you (biblical basis I mean..not self-generated 'common sense').

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 10-19-2005 11:19 AM iano has not replied

  
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