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Author | Topic: What is The Atonement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Legend writes: But I thought you said God had forgiven us ?! Nah mate. Thats the Gospel according to Jar Forgiveness is available to all, the gift is available to all. One of the numerous things that happen during the headline action of salvation is forgiveness of sins. But it occurs in the process of salvation. If the process never happens then the forgiveness never occurs. The general sequence is as follows: A person recognises (by whatever form that triggers it: want/despair/guilt/pain/advancing age/flash of inspiration/nature around them) their need of God to be the one to save them (in whatever form 'save' is formulated in them) God then: Justifies them: ie: he doesn't see them as sinners (unrighteous) but righteous. Or rather clothed in Christs righteousness. He forgives all their sin: every one, no matter how appalling. All sins past, present and future. And he lets them know that. It is quite refreshing - especially if you've alot of baggage. He adopts them as sons (and daughters). The person feels peace. They have been at war with God (even if they didn't see it as such) so the peace is tanglible. He moves into the person: whereas before God was separate from man in spirit, now he dwells in the man. The purpose of the Spirit is multifold but include in varying degrees: confirming to the person that God has moved in, guiding the person in the way that God wants them to go, interceding with the father on the persons behalf - like it's not like we can speak Gods 'language'. Begins the process of sanctification: could be seen as training the person for life in heaven Makes the person feel like an alien on earth. Sounds like it wouldn't be nice but it's not unpleasant There are other things too and the degree in which a person experiences these will vary. No matter. Some won't feel a sense of assurance of salvation. But it doesn't mean they aren't saved. If God has saved then that is that.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Crevo writes: but that's exactly what you claim... we are all born sinners.. doomed to hell...separate from god. All born infected. The weeping sores of the infection (sin) will all too soon manifest the infection
You have claimed that that a child born with an illness or deformitty is suffering for the sins of it's father Adam sinned, then sinful nature entered him as a disease. In that sense, the child (and everyone) is suffering in being infected with the same disease - a consequence of Adams action.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Where do you get this stuff from? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
PD writes: Where do you get this stuff from? I make it up as I go along nah only kidding PD. I get it from the same place you do, the same place where we get the idea of the Trinity. Try Romans 5:12 Sure sounds like an epidemic to me.. This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 09:35 PM
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1304 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
So as a consequence of adams action, the child is not only spiritually dead, but is now (for instance) terminally ill/deformed.
how on earth can you reconcile this with...
iano writes: Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. clearly in this situation the child is being punished (spirituallly dead, sentanced to physical death, sentenced to a life of hardship and ridicule because of something Adam did 4,000 years ago? You are welcome to your god.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
That's Paul's teaching though. Where does Jesus or Judaism present the idea of sin as a disease.
"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I didn't say die more or less. I said suffer more or less. ...
How can your sins today be punished in him then that's what we're asking.
if not in the eternal realm? because THAT bit doesn't make sense. god may be eternal, but we are not. we see time sequentially.
I think your missing the overall message of Romans to whit: Everybody is born a sinner, dead in their transgression and sins, enemies of God, hating Gods laws, all have fallen short of the glory of God, spiritually blind, not able to know God, not able to please God etc, etc. Everbody is born this way. All have default Hell stamped on them. check. so far i'm not not missing anything -- death, suffering, we suck, god hates us. i still say paul is wrong.
What happens to a person who comes to believe is that this 'old man' is put to death. The old sinful nature, the one that has the characteristics listed above, the one we were born with - is put to death, crucified in Christ. And a righteous spirit is born. A spirit that is alive to Christ, alive to God, at peace with God, not subject to condemnation. yes, i've read romans. christ didn't promise that i would die and someone new would be born. he promised that i would live forever. i still fail to see the "death, suffering, god hates us" part of jesus's message in the gospel. where does paul get it from? it's not the ot.
You miss (why I do not know) the other half of what Paul says. because it's based on a LIE. not all men are sinful, some do not sin according to the bible. not all sin demands death. not all sin demands sacrifice. sacrifice is not demanded, it's OFFERED. one cannot atone for another. one cannot atone before sinning. paul's view is that god hates his children, and has rigged a cruel game against them. we are to follow a law he put in place, contrary to our nature which he created. even if we do follow the law, we're still sinful, and every minor misdeed demands our death. paul's implications about god's character, frankly, are blasphemy. god's love for his children, god's forgiveness and compassion are spoken to throughout the entire bible. men are described as perfect and sinless -- a few of which clearly sinned prior to that description. how can that be? david says that god doesn't require sacrifices. why then does paul think god is some evil clockwork fixated on damning his own creation?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Now if God choses not to exist, then he would (if he is able to do ANYTHING..as you suggest) be able to re-exist again. But how can something that doesn't exist make himself re-exist? did god always exist? how did he come to be? i suspect these have the same answer.
certainly not the faith in jesus's death -- just in who he was. here's some forgiven for LOVE, not faith: In the same way your sins can be forgiven in Christ now although he died then, her sins can be forgiven in Christ even though he had yet to die. Eternity isn't limited by time. uh, no. there was nothing in that passage about death at all. no condition of death. nothing. just faith in christ's ability and personage.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: where is faith mentioned? It's not mentioned. Because this is Law. And you, nor I nor anyone can follow it. it's not Law, capital L. we've been over this. the Law, capital L, is ha-torah, the five books of moses, or the code contained there within, depending on context. jesus speaking it does not make it law -- read the other books of the prophets. they all sound abotu the same.
Ever judged anyone Arach? no.
Ever condemned anyone? no.
Ever not forgiven someone? no.
An answer in the affirmative is a given. Thus Arach, you will be judged and not forgiven - according to the Law. still not the Law.
iano writes: As i pointed out above. God is constrained by the impossibility of acting counter to himself.
arach writes: not so. god cannot act counter to himself any more than you or i can. Read it again. We're saying the same thing in fact. God cannot act counter to his himself. Counter to his nature no, you read it again, and read the rest of it this time too. you're saying that god has a nature that clearly defines what he is, and if he could act contrary to that nature he would not be god. i'm saying that nobody can act contrary to their nature becuase whatever they do is by definition in their nature. god acting contrary to his nature makes his nature contrary. which, if you've read the bible, is no suprise. wrath and compassion? that's a pretty wide swath of a nature.
God punished sin in Christ. god killed an innocent man, his own son even. that makes him not just. if justness is defined according to your particulary view -- that sin must be punished -- then it follows that god must punish sin if he is to be just. punishing an innocent bystander and letting the criminal go free is NOT justice. ever.
Its the person who happens to be bearing it that suffers. this is based on a mistaken assumption that laying the hands on your sacrifice according to levitical standards is transfer of sin. if that's the case, alot of sin ends up in the levites, who eat certain kinds of sin offerings. really, it's the other way around.
quote: strange, no?
Did you read the drug analogy. Our law punishes the possessor of the cocaine. The cocaine can change possession and the new possessor recieve the punishment instead of the original possessor. Christ was punished because he took our sin into his possession. if i sell an undercover cop some rock, but i don't have any left when he arrests me, do you think "but i don't have any now, the cop has it; arrest him!" would fly in court? i don't think so. possession is not 9/10th's of the law.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
arach writes: Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. What did she call him again? certainly not "dead guy nailed to a peice of wood."
I trip, and fall, and while i'm off balance and flailing for something to steady myself on, i accidentally clock you and break your noise. Wheres the accident? You weren't paying attention, looking where you were going. You know that if you do this then 'accidents' can happen and that people can get hurt. wait, so, accidents can happen, and everybody knows this, therefor nothing is an accident?
And I'm hurt. Under Law (an eye for an eye) I'm entitled to smack you in the nose. since you keep using the teachings of jesus as "the Law" no, you're not:
quote: technically, under "the Law," you're required to provide me with something else on your body to harm -- especially if it wasn't really an accident like you said it's not.
I forgive. I take the consequences of your inattention but sacrifice my right to have justice. Sacrifice an Eye for an Eye. then the sacrifice in god forgiving is him sacrificing his right to justice.
You got an infection (a sinful nature) from your father - Adam. But it's not the infection that will be punished - its the sin. And that sin is your own. No conflict here. "predisposition" sounds more accurate i think. but presumably, then, if i don't ever sin, i'm justified by the law and don't need salvation in christ, right? if it's just the sin that's punished...
Enoch and Job sinned alright. Righteous in Gods sight doesn't mean a man never sins. quote: quote: what do you suppose perfect means? normally, it means "without flaw" as in "following the law without flaw"
Jesus never sinned, that much is correct. But he is unique: the purpose of the virgin birth was to break the sinful nature infected line from Adam so says st augustine, yes. he was convinced that original sin is delivered through sperm. but take note -- eve was the mother of all mankind, including jesus, who was at least half human. eve was the first to sin, though possibly in ignorance. if the tendency and predisposition to sin is part of human nature, jesus had it too. examples don't work well when held to different standards. if jesus's LIFE meant anything, it was an example. it was god showing us he understands, and demonstrating how to overcome things like our nature. without that little bit, most of it's meaningless. jesus might as well have been a noncorporeal spirit, like the gnostics believed. his physical human existance would have been meaningless.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Arachs "Salvation by having your heart in the right place" Where are these concepts laid out in the bible? you've quoted some of it yourself. remember. when jesus was alive, he never spoke of being saved by believing in his death, except maybe in the gospel of john. the other three are filled with lots and lots of other advice about how to think and how to feel, and how to treat others. don't believe me?
quote: salvation by giving away your wordly possesions seems to be a theme. think rich man, camel, eye of the needle.
quote: here's some more of how JESUS says you get saved:
quote: quote: we mentioned this before, and how it doesn't refer to anythign relating to death, but love:
quote: this one's a little cryptic, but i think it's talking about that proper mindset thing, being upright and honest:
quote: no death here, just faith in jesus's healing powers:
quote: here's the preists mocking jesus:
quote: note that jesus dies 9 verses later, yet saved is in past tense. though the priests are making fun of him, it's evidence that he was walking around during his life, calling people "saved." now, i don't like the book of john much, but it does sum up my point nicely:
quote: and here's the single salvation-by-death (actually, salvation by resurrection) mention made by jesus, post-death. note that baptism is half the requirment, not faith alone:
quote: so. where does this whole death fascination come from?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
A command is a command is it not. A law is a law. It not? no, it is not. the jews have a hierarchy of laws. the torah, the Law, capital L, and the mosaic code within, are the highest law, and the ten commandments the top of those. below that there is the talmud and the oral law, and the midrashim and various other commentary. jesus's words are in line with the midrashim and the nevi'im (prophetic books: isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel, and the 12)
Plenty of repitition as to what light this should be seen. That logic says it must mean this etc, that my reality proves it etc. On the one hand "The bible says" on the other "the bible isn't accurate" some cursory understanding of the bible, what it is, and what's in it are generally good things.
Show the bible backs up what (you say) the bible says or lets leave it at that Jar. I'm done with all "your own reality" and "this bit of the map is correct that isn't" subjectivity see my post above. given the choice between what jesus says saves, and what paul says saves, who would you choose to put your faith with?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually, in John 3 the condemnation is not even death, but rather related to actions, behavior.
John 3 continues to describe the condemnation asfollows
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. It returns to knowing people by their behavior, not what beliefs they profess. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
quote:Oddly enough, this one isn't really a part of the Mosaic Law. nitpick: that's more or less the same thing as "no other gods before me." just kind of a reinterpretation/elaboration of the same concept.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
ramoss writes: God isn't going to nor ever has destroyed a human. Thats the horror of hell for you. And the joy of heaven. So, god paid himself a ransom so that he wouldn't destroy the people he is created yet again? translation problem. some people don't believe in the afterlife. i don't think traditional jews do, as there is little indication of it in the tanakh. substitute "punish eternally" or "kill (in the spiritual sense)" for "destroy" and then proceed to answer the question.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Mainly anything of the rules that are described in Levatiucs.. there so so many, SOMEONE is bound to break them sometime. There also seems to be a different sense about what 'sin' is betweenthe Jewish religion and the christian religion. Sin , literally , means 'to miss the mark'. It means that someone made the wrong choice, or did not do the best they could. In the Christianreligion, there seems to be an all powerful' SIN' that corrupts everyone. The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the 'urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'. i should have been a jew. i think this is a much more sensible ideology, and one that actually fits with most of the bible.
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