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Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 202 (252918)
10-19-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by iano
10-18-2005 3:59 PM


Receiving The Atonement
Hi Iano. You've said some things here that may need some clarification to the unaprised in these things. In your sequense, it begins with knowledge of who Jesus is, why he died, why one is lost in need of him and what one must do in order to obtain salvation.
1. Jesus is lord of all and must be received, not only as savior but as lord and savior. Lord means master, as in owner of slave, requiring total submission and alegiance. Too many make a profession of faith in Christ, not understanding the responsibilities entailed in this regard.
2. One must believe and understand that the wages of sin is death, i.e. spiritual and physical and that there is a judgement after death. Then one must understand and believe that the death of the inocent Jesus son of God/judge paid the penalty for the sinner.
3. After knowledge and believing/understanding, one must, after understanding his lostness, receive the saviour, both as lord and saviour. One does this by calling on him in prayer for salvation. John 1:12 (receive) Romans 10:13 (call on him for salvation)
When doing this it's important to understand how the trinity works. God the father sits on the throne in Heaven. Jesus the resurrected son sits on the right hand of the father. These two real beings are close, but in two different locations located in a real place in the universe, both father and son. The Holy Spirit is that member (note that I didn't say person) of the trinity which is multipresent, that is, can be sent by the father or the son anywhere in the universe. When one receives Jesus, Jesus, not being multipresent perse, does not move from Heaven to earth. His spirit, the Holy Spirit of Jesus and of Jehovah, the father is what comes into the convert. This process is called in the NT, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.. I Corintians 12:13 We are all baptized into one body by one spirit. Also John 3:3,4 where one is born again (Greek literal, born from above)/born spiritually according to the context. It's really not as you put it that the Holy Spirit confirms that God comes in. It is the spirit of Jehovah God, the father and of Jesus the son that comes in. God, the father, remember, resides in Heaven. The Lord's Prayer, model prayer of Jesus, for example makes a point in specifying this. Jesus said so elsewhere also.
Please understand that I'm not being nitpicky. It's just that I think many who are unaprised on these things really don't understand how it all works. Why? Because it's not taught them in the churches,in personal witness and evangelism like the Bible spells it out. The preacher says something like "Come to the alter. Accept Jesus as savior and you're in." Well, maybe, maybe not, depending on how much the person understands and believes about what he/she's doing. Unfortunantely, I'm afraid, too many go out unchanged and unconverted having no real understanding of it all. (savior/saviour -- both spellings correct, btw)
I realize you likely understand much of this, but some don't. This all, necessary for the atonement to become effective for salvation. The atonement to become meaningful to the OT Jew, had to be both understood and received. So in the NT for it to become of any effect to the Christian convert.
Edited to change title.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-19-2005 12:39 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 3:59 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 6:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 167 of 202 (252919)
10-19-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by purpledawn
10-18-2005 8:25 PM


Re: The Sinful Nature
That's Paul's teaching though. Where does Jesus or Judaism present the idea of sin as a disease.
actually, i;m not totally sure it's quite paul's teaching. the formalized modern concept of original sin, the disease one that iano is mentioning, comes from st augustine, i think.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 10-18-2005 8:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2005 12:54 AM arachnophilia has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 168 of 202 (252921)
10-19-2005 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
10-19-2005 12:27 AM


Re: the gospel according to jesus
It returns to knowing people by their behavior, not what beliefs they profess.
i don't think it's behaviour, really. the behaviour is an outward sign of something internal. i think jesus was speaking of the way we should think, and feel, and love. he talked of compassion, which isn't so much an action but an emotion...

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 12:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 12:53 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 202 (252922)
10-19-2005 12:46 AM


The Christ story
We who have lived in a Christian culture all our lives have gotten so used to the story that we have become insensitive to it, but I think it is possible to step back and be able to see it afresh. If one can do that, one realizes that it is a very powerful tale, speaking of it artistically.
It is probable that it is the drama of this story that led to the triumph of Christianity in the Western world.
Everything I've read on this thread reinforces my idea that it does not make a lot of sense to say that "Jesus died for our sins." But emotionally speaking, it is a very powerful message.
The nails going into the hands--He died for You--each of you personally. That's the idea.
This dramatic quality of the Christ story shows us that the aesthetic aspect of a given doctrine has a lot to do with whether or not it is accepted generally.

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 7:05 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 170 of 202 (252924)
10-19-2005 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:45 AM


Re: the gospel according to jesus
Yes, the emotion, the drive to try to do right, is essential. However, as shown time and time again, the verification of that emotion is not through profession, but through action. The outward sign of your internal beliefs is what you do. If you Profess Christ but do not show it through behavior, you will still be known by what you do, not what you say.
We are charged with the Knowledge of Right & Wrong and with trying to do what is right. Jesus is most certainly speaking of how we should think, feel and love. But unless those internals are reflected in and correspond with, your external actions, it means nothing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:45 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 202 (252926)
10-19-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:39 AM


Re: The Sinful Nature
Hi arachnophilia. Long time no talk to. I appreciated your comments that you enjoyed engaging conversation with buz or something to that effect before I was allowed posting priviledges.
I have to agree here that sin really isn't a disease as defined in our understanding of the word. Sin is things we do, say and think contrary to the commandments of the father, Jehovah and the son, Jesus -- those things we need to have atoned by an innocent sacrifice, being Jesus, called the sacrificial lamb of God in the NT.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:39 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 1:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 172 of 202 (252928)
10-19-2005 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
10-19-2005 12:53 AM


Re: the gospel according to jesus
that's what i mean of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 12:53 AM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 173 of 202 (252931)
10-19-2005 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Buzsaw
10-19-2005 12:54 AM


Re: The Sinful Nature
Hi arachnophilia. Long time no talk to. I appreciated your comments that you enjoyed engaging conversation with buz or something to that effect before I was allowed posting priviledges.
i wasn't sure if you were still lurking around. glad you're back. it should be.... interesting.
I have to agree here that sin really isn't a disease as defined in our understanding of the word. Sin is things we do, say and think contrary to the commandments of the father, Jehovah and the son, Jesus --
look at ramoss's post a few back, i quoted all of it my breif reply. give that particular standpoint some thought for a while, tell me if you think it doesn't make more sense, and make god seem a little more... reasonable.
those things we need to have atoned by an innocent sacrifice, being Jesus, called the sacrificial lamb of God in the NT.
well, as i said previously in this thread, not all sin has an associated sacrifice, and not all sacrifices are lambs, bulls, or things we can kill per se. also, sacrifices are not required, but offered.
jews today atone without making sacrifices in the traditional sense, how do you suppose they do it? we just went through that particular holy-day.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2005 12:54 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2005 10:18 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 174 of 202 (252945)
10-19-2005 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by purpledawn
10-18-2005 8:25 PM


Re: The Sinful Nature
That's Paul's teaching though. Where does Jesus or Judaism present the idea of sin as a disease.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not Jesus. We can only assume these words are accurate both in original originator, recording of and transmission of - if we assume God ensured it would be so.
Either all of it is assumed (for the purposed of discussion) to be the word of God or none of it is assumed to be the word of God.
Unless you have some way of discerning the difference...

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 175 of 202 (252952)
10-19-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Buzsaw
10-19-2005 12:37 AM


Re: Receiving The Atonement
Hi Buzaw
Although there might be aspects of what you said that we could flesh out I agree with what you say in that you describe the mechanistic, (for want of a better word) aspects of salvation.
The preacher says something like "Come to the alter. Accept Jesus as savior and you're in."
I agree too, that the above is no more means to salvation that is water baptism as an infant + all the rest. However, I think some confusion could arise in the unapprraised, if they read what you write and took it at face value: ie: that they have to understand and accept all these things to the fullness of measure you describe.
We have ample biblcal demonstration of that this is NOT the case with the thief on the cross who only recognised (in so far as he did) Jesus as Lord and savior. His statement "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" incorporated the essential elements:
recognition of Jesus as Lord,
recognition that Jesus was the way to heaven,
recogniton, in his conversation with the other thief, that he was a sinner deserving of what he was receiving.
But he wouldn't have understood things to the extent you describe. His was a more childlike, simplistic expression. But it was the heart behind it that Jesus saw. It is always the heart behind it that Jesus sees.
Thus Jesus replied "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise". Saved by this childlike act of faith.
In my own experience to, I found the same. I cried out to God. Not because I could write an essay on my sinfulness, not because I understood anything in the least about salvation, not because I knew the wages of sin was death. But simply because I had nowhere else to go. Only God could rescue me from what I had come to recognise was a despicable life. I didn't want God per se. I wanted out of where I was and did offer my life over to him - because he was the only option.
Desperation does strange things to a fella.
It was over the course of a year that I began to learn the mechanics. I found it all made sense "Of course!!" "It fits!" were regular exclamations whilst I read. I found the bible describe what it was I sensed was actually going on inside me - the two matched together perfectly.
I must have been about a year in when I was reading through a tract I was intending to give to someone else (!). It talked about the basic salvation message and had a bit on forgiveness. It suggested that the person write down all their sin on a piece of paper. Every little thing that could be rememebered. So I did: categories of sin (drugs, sex) specific sins (specific actions over the years). Scribble, scribble. Then I came to stuff I couldn't even write down it was that shameful. I thought to myself "If I were to drop dead this second, people I love would read this - I can't" The next second the thought struck me: "Je kan het wel in het Nederlands!" ("You can of course...in Dutch!". I happen to speak Dutch...
Off I went again. And at the end the instruction was write the verse "For he is gracious and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from every unrighteousness" across the page. Then burn it. It was only a symbol...of what God does with sin.
I was saved before I wrote anything down. I repented of my sin a year after. I only came to understand repentance then. How do I know I was saved?
The doctrine you describe can only be understood to that level when a person recieves the holy spirit - who removes the blindness and lets them see how it all fits. A person who is blind cannot "for it is foolishness to them". I recognised and understood doctrine before I got to the doctrine of forgivenss. I could only do this "by the Spirit". I had the Spirit before I repented in this fuller sense.
To the unappraised:
All you can do is recognise your need to 'thief on the cross' levels and make a confession from the heart based on that. God doesn't demand the impossible - he only demands our heart desiring him to save...
If it's from the heart, he'll know and he'll save. You can understand the doctrine more fully later...
Thank God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2005 12:37 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2005 10:50 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 176 of 202 (252954)
10-19-2005 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by robinrohan
10-19-2005 12:46 AM


Re: The Christ story
I think the real drama of the 'story' is at the other end. Even an idle musing about what God would be like should awaken in all but the most crass, a sense of awe and wonder. We are familiar enough with our own powers to be able to compare them to his. For me, it's looking at a star-filled night and thinking of these been spoken into existance.
Then 2000 or so years ago, this eternal God decided that the time was right and..... stepped into time. Stooped down to our level. Communed with us - his creation
This dramatic quality of the Christ story shows us that the aesthetic aspect of a given doctrine has a lot to do with whether or not it is accepted generally.
Something that could be equally achieved by it being true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 12:46 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 177 of 202 (252956)
10-19-2005 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Heathen
10-18-2005 5:31 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
Crevo writes:
clearly in this situation the child is being punished (spirituallly dead, sentanced to physical death, sentenced to a life of hardship and ridicule because of something Adam did 4,000 years ago?
Punishment is the wrong word. Consequence is the right one. God gave man dominion over creation. He gave man dominion over a factory assembled and perfectly functioning V8 engine. He said "don't mess with it - it is good" Man disobeyed, spannered on the engine and it has not run right since. Dominion brings with it responsibilty. The German nation was punished due to the actions of those who had dominion over it. Same kind of thing
Deuteronomy talks about 'putting to death' not being due to the sins of the father. And no one will be put to death for the sins of Adam nor anyone else. It will ones own sin, made despite a conscience telling them not to do so, that will result in them being put to death. Unless they are set free.
You are welcome to your god.
It is a common misunderstanding which asserts people having a choice to take or leave God in an ultimate sense. Everyone will face God whether they like it or not. It is not up to the person to decide that. All a person can do is decide under which circumstances they meet him. That's all. Disbelieving in God doesn't make him go away

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 178 of 202 (252960)
10-19-2005 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by arachnophilia
10-18-2005 11:26 PM


Re: stupid question
Arach writes:
because THAT bit (present day sins punished back then) doesn't make sense. god may be eternal, but we are not. we see time sequentially.
We don't see time as sequential. Time is sequential. In eternity there is no time. No sequence. God sees your yesterday, today and tomorrow all the time. He knows the sin you are going to commit today and he knows if you are going to turn to him. If you do then he will (because Jesus crucifixion is as present to him as the occasion of your sin) punish it in Jesus.
The name God gave himself when Moses asked him "who shall I say sent me?" was "I AM" I AM is present tense, eternally present tense. Every moment in our time is present tense to God
Not that anyone can fully get their head around eternity
check. so far i'm not not missing anything -- death, suffering, we suck, god hates us.
Nearly...its not "God hates us"...it's "God hates our sin". And whoever has the sin in them will feel the wrath if they possess it. Jesus or themselves.
"For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever would believe in him would not die but have eternal life"
That's how much God loves us...he sacrificed his son. It is easy to skip over this in debate but I ask you to face it. There is the proof of his love for us. What more do you want (without contrdicting his wrath and just-ness)
Try Romans 1:18
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness OF men..." Not on man but on something man possesses.
not all men are sinful
Have you got an example. The only person the bible talks about who was without sin was Jesus. No other.
yes, i've read romans. christ didn't promise that i would die and someone new would be born. he promised that i would live forever. i still fail to see the "death, suffering, god hates us" part of jesus's message in the gospel.
John 3:3/5"I tell you the truth, unless a man is born from above/again/of the spirit he will never see the kingdom of heaven"
John 3:6 "That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit"
John verse 8 "so is everyone who is born of the spirit
"Unless"....shows that something must happen to see the kingdom of heaven
"Born of spirit" is the something.
Now the question is how is one born of the spirit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by arachnophilia, posted 10-18-2005 11:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 8:49 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 179 of 202 (252965)
10-19-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by arachnophilia
10-18-2005 11:45 PM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
arach writes:
it's not Law, capital L. we've been over this. the Law, capital L, is ha-torah, the five books of moses, or the code contained there within, depending on context. jesus speaking it does not make it law -- read the other books of the prophets. they all sound abotu the same.
Jesus is God. If God says "the law says don't commit adultery but I say if a man so much as lusts after a woman he has commited adultery in his heart" then law it is. He also summed up all the law for us in two commandments
You can insist on your version of the law is. It makes no difference to the law as God decides it is.
wrath and compassion? that's a pretty wide swath of a nature.
We are made in his image and likeness. Have you got wrath and compassion in you? A significant difference with us that our versions can be unrighteous. God is always righteous in his ways.
punishing an innocent bystander and letting the criminal go free is NOT justice. ever.
Where did you get your sense of justice if not from God. But Gods sense of justice is, you may agree, of a different order than yours. Your justice takes into account a limited amount of the total. God's takes into account everything relevant to the case. If God says it's justice then it's justice, if you say it's injustice it's only the view of a very, very limited creature
if i sell an undercover cop some rock, but i don't have any left when he arrests me, do you think "but i don't have any now, the cop has it; arrest him!" would fly in court? i don't think so. possession is not 9/10th's of the law.
You were found in possession of it by a legal agent weren't you? You will be tried on that basis. The point of arrest is to arrest you...that's all. The case is made on the evidence. And the evidence is you possessed.
10/10ths of the law

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by arachnophilia, posted 10-18-2005 11:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 9:05 PM iano has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 180 of 202 (252968)
10-19-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:39 AM


Re: The Sinful Nature
quote:
actually, i;m not totally sure it's quite paul's teaching. the formalized modern concept of original sin, the disease one that iano is mentioning, comes from st augustine, i think.
The verse used to support the sinful nature idea, is Paul's. I don't feel that what Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans was meant to be taken as the word of God.
I'm never quite sure how to forumulate my thoughts concerning Paul.
IMO, Paul is the forerunner of the evangelists. I see him as a salesman and his letters are probably just a very small portion of his teaching. We don't really know what his physical teachings were.
Salesmen say what is necessary to make the sale. Their intent is to create the desired emotions within their audience. Paul does the same thing.
Some of his letters are letters that initiate contact and some are answers to questions or letters he has received. Unfortunately we don't have the questions or other letters.
Although Paul does have some good teachings within his writings, I have a problem with dogma and tradition that has been derived from his writings.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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