What is The Atonement?

Hi Iano. You've said some things here that may need some clarification to the unaprised in these things. In your sequense, it begins with knowledge of who Jesus is, why he died, why one is lost in need of him and what one must do in order to obtain salvation.
1. Jesus is lord of all and must be received, not only as savior but as lord and savior. Lord means master, as in owner of slave, requiring total submission and alegiance. Too many make a profession of faith in Christ, not understanding the responsibilities entailed in this regard.
2. One must believe and understand that the wages of sin is death, i.e. spiritual and physical and that there is a judgement after death. Then one must understand and believe that the death of the inocent Jesus son of God/judge paid the penalty for the sinner.
3. After knowledge and believing/understanding, one must, after understanding his lostness, receive the saviour, both as lord and saviour. One does this by calling on him in prayer for salvation. John 1:12 (receive) Romans 10:13 (call on him for salvation)
When doing this it's important to understand how the trinity works. God the father sits on the throne in Heaven. Jesus the resurrected son sits on the right hand of the father. These two real beings are close, but in two different locations located in a real place in the universe, both father and son. The Holy Spirit is that member (note that I didn't say person) of the trinity which is multipresent, that is, can be sent by the father or the son anywhere in the universe. When one receives Jesus, Jesus, not being multipresent perse, does not move from Heaven to earth. His spirit, the Holy Spirit of Jesus and of Jehovah, the father is what comes into the convert. This process is called in the NT, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.. I Corintians 12:13 We are all baptized into one body by one spirit. Also John 3:3,4 where one is born again (Greek literal, born from above)/born spiritually according to the context. It's really not as you put it that the Holy Spirit confirms that God comes in. It is the spirit of Jehovah God, the father and of Jesus the son that comes in. God, the father, remember, resides in Heaven. The Lord's Prayer, model prayer of Jesus, for example makes a point in specifying this. Jesus said so elsewhere also.Please understand that I'm not being nitpicky. It's just that I think many who are unaprised on these things really don't understand how it all works. Why? Because it's not taught them in the churches,in personal witness and evangelism like the Bible spells it out. The preacher says something like "Come to the alter. Accept Jesus as savior and you're in." Well, maybe, maybe not, depending on how much the person understands and believes about what he/she's doing. Unfortunantely, I'm afraid, too many go out unchanged and unconverted having no real understanding of it all. (savior/saviour -- both spellings correct, btw)I realize you likely understand much of this, but some don't. This all, necessary for the atonement to become effective for salvation. The atonement to become meaningful to the OT Jew, had to be both understood and received. So in the NT for it to become of any effect to the Christian convert.
Edited to change title.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-19-2005 12:39 AM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Hi arachnophilia. Long time no talk to. I appreciated your comments that you enjoyed engaging conversation with buz or something to that effect before I was allowed posting priviledges. I have to agree here that sin really isn't a disease as defined in our understanding of the word. Sin is things we do, say and think contrary to the commandments of the father, Jehovah and the son, Jesus -- those things we need to have atoned by an innocent sacrifice, being Jesus, called the sacrificial lamb of God in the NT.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

The thief on the cross had no other option than simply to acknoledge Jesus as savior and lord, which he did. He had no life to live and no chance to get messed up after conversion. On the other hand, we see all these people making a profession of faith and seemingly falling on rocky soil to go no place from there but eventual denial. Had they been apprised on some rather simple doctrines at by the one/one's evangelizing, they would likely have had a better chance at understanding. Your points are, nevertheless well taken.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

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The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'.

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There's a big difference between Jews who were once into their religion with all the required sacrifices and atonements needed for their sins and the modern Jew who does not experience all this. A never ending shedding of blood being required, they had to have had an appreciateion for the evil of sin to require all this from a holy sinless God when they, in obedience, did all this. Even way back when they worshipped false gods, abandoning the true god, Jehovah, they passed their children through the fires et al to try and atone for their sins. They lost their concept at times, however as to what was considered sinful by God and what was not, as do careless Christians today.

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jews today atone without making sacrifices in the traditional sense, how do you suppose they do it? we just went through that particular holy-day.

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For all practical purposes, the sacrifices ended at the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem abut 70 AD. The Jews were scattered and unorganized without city, priesthood and temple. I've heard that some of the orthodox devouts do some with birds today, but not apprised on the particulars.Scriptural prophetically speaking, God intended for them to end after the once and for all acceptible atonement Jesus made for sins on the cross. There was no longer a need for Levitical sacrifices.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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the point that i'm really trying to get at is that atonement is not dependent on sacrifice;

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But according to both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures, without the sacrifices, there is no atonement.

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sacrifice is only a portion of it. and today, it is an unneccessary portion, even for jews.

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Regardless of what they do, their scriptures still require a sacrifice, and contrary to what they may believe, the prophecies in their scriptures prophesied the events of the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus who was to fulfill that need.

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they HAD to find some other method when the temple was detroyed -- they can't very well sacrifice at the dome of the rock, but that's the place god ordained for them.

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That's just it. God, who sent their messiah whom they rejected saw to it that there would be no place for the scrifices which they no longer needed, Jesus fulfilling that role. This is significant lending credence to the sovereignty of God relative to his purpose and plan.

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some think that when the messiah comes back, it will be reinstated -- but they don't think they're all going to hell because they're not killing anything.

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Those who receive God's provision become saved like everyone else. The scriptures prophecy a millenial temple for when Jesus returns. Most believe it will be built before his return. I disagree. It will be built by Jesus to suit himself after he returns. The only likely role any sacrifice will play is a commemorative role, commemorating the sacrifice Jesus made

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw