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Author Topic:   Logic
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 31 of 110 (252376)
10-17-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
10-17-2005 11:09 AM


Re: Answer to riddle
LOL, thanks Mike for your hard work to explain. Didn't help. So, I'll ask you a specific question. Although, I feel that these black boxes are getting out of control.
I got one solution for assuming west=right and one solution for west=left. How do I figure out what direction west is (left or right)?
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2005 11:09 AM mike the wiz has replied

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 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2005 12:01 PM Ben! has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 32 of 110 (252387)
10-17-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Ben!
10-17-2005 11:33 AM


Re: Answer to riddle
I promise this is my last black box. People will think this is an eyes only topic.
You get a bonus point for not assuming west means left. It turns out you're too logical for my riddle. I didn't want to say "left" of the middle so I said west, because I thought people would think I meant the position next to the middle position, if I said "left". It turns out saying west confused you more than simply saying left. Lol.
I will edit the post containing the riddle.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2005 12:02 PM

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 Message 31 by Ben!, posted 10-17-2005 11:33 AM Ben! has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 33 of 110 (253293)
10-20-2005 9:21 AM


SHRAFF HELP
In another thread I used the term tautology.
My feeble young brain wonders whether logically, this is just a vacuous statement, (or can be), or whether it must be classed as the opposite of a contradiction. Which led me to wonder; Would teh opposite of a contradiction be;
" Pie is tastey and not tastey ".
In this case, I suppose my statement qualifies as vacuous, but is it the opposite of a contradiction? *confusion*
can it be said that;
" If there are a hundred earthquakes, my city will fall "..
Is this a tatutology because of the accurate inference? Or is it just a vacuous statement? Or both?
Yes. I need a human to explain, as I find weblinks never suffice my obtuse, literal mind.

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by nator, posted 10-20-2005 9:28 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 37 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 10:13 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 110 (253294)
10-20-2005 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 9:21 AM


damned if I know this early in the day.
Sorry mike

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:21 AM mike the wiz has replied

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 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:30 AM nator has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 35 of 110 (253296)
10-20-2005 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by nator
10-20-2005 9:28 AM


Lol, fair enough. If it's any consolation, I don't know any time of day.

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 36 of 110 (253300)
10-20-2005 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by mike the wiz
10-16-2005 9:10 AM


Re: LOGIC Riddles
Ok I got it.. though my final answer includes a slight guess on my part:
Left to right: Green:S, Pink:?, Blue:S, White:L, Black:S. I'm guessing my hat is the pink hat. However I wasn't able to deduce my size... how do you get that bit?
This message has been edited by Yaro, 10-20-2005 10:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 10-16-2005 9:10 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:33 AM Yaro has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 37 of 110 (253309)
10-20-2005 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 9:21 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
" If there are a hundred earthquakes, my city will fall "..
Is this a tatutology because of the accurate inference? Or is it just a vacuous statement? Or both?
It really isn't a logic question at all. What it says depends on a lot of extra-logical assumptions about earthquakes, their severity, the location of the city relative to the earthquake area, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 9:21 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:41 AM nwr has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 38 of 110 (253318)
10-20-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Yaro
10-20-2005 9:58 AM


Re: LOGIC Riddles
Yaro, you've basically solved it. Just look at the premises about what hat will fit and you'll have it.
Here's the answer to your question if you want to look;
[ For readers; Highligting black boxes gives away answer to riddle]
Your order is correct. Well done. 1 premise is that one hat fits. The pink can't be large, as you're not large, and 2 would fit if it was. If it was small, then the three other small hats would fit. So the pink can only be medium size, if the premise "one hat will fit" is to be correct.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-20-2005 10:34 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Yaro, posted 10-20-2005 9:58 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Yaro, posted 10-20-2005 10:36 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 62 by Ben!, posted 10-20-2005 11:51 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 39 of 110 (253319)
10-20-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 10:33 AM


Re: LOGIC Riddles
AH! *SMACKS HEAD* duh!
heheheh. Ok, I got it. Pretty good puzzle there mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:33 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 40 of 110 (253322)
10-20-2005 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by nwr
10-20-2005 10:13 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
Is my example bad? I just wrote it down quickly as I could.
I know that it has something to do with the inference being correct, but it not illogical, in the sense that it is useless but logically valid. The example I read was;
It either is raining outside or isn't.
Logically okay, but pointless.
What I need to know, is the opposite of a contradiction. Does the "or" in raining outside show this? Surely it would be an "and" in the sense that two opposites are possible.
For example
" Pies are tastey and not tastey " is a true statement, in that, many people find them tastey, and many don't. Is this the opposite of a contradiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 10:13 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 11:49 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 41 of 110 (253325)
10-20-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Yaro
10-20-2005 10:36 AM


Make Yarown sometime
Thanks, they're a real headache to make.
I knew you'd do it, coz you had already got so far.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Yaro, posted 10-20-2005 10:36 AM Yaro has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 42 of 110 (253346)
10-20-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
10-20-2005 10:41 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
It either is raining outside or isn't.
Logically okay, but pointless.
I'll disagree with you there. It might not be pointless.
Okay, it is pointless in your post, because it is disconnected from everything else. Let me try an example that I once saw. This is from a time before the feminist movement.
  1. A woman is either attractive or unattractive;
  2. If a woman is attractive, a university education is superfluous;
  3. If a woman is unattractive, a university education is inadequate;
  4. Therefore, for a woman, a university education is either superfluous or indadequate.
Here, premise (1) is analogous to your assertion about raining.
In the argument above, the logic is impeccable. Therefore, if there is a problem with the conclusion, then the problem must be one of the premises.
A statement such as "It either is raining outside or isn't." is often used in a syllogism, precisely so that an argument can be given with impeccable logic. But that initial premise is still subject to challenge, so it is not pointless. Rather, it serves the role of separating the logic from the non-logical assumptions being made about the real world.
What I need to know, is the opposite of a contradiction. Does the "or" in raining outside show this? Surely it would be an "and" in the sense that two opposites are possible.
Here I take you as using "opposite" as an ordinary natural language term (with all the vagueness that implies), rather than as a precise logical term. My answer would be that the opposite is a truism or tautology -- something that is always true just due to the nature of the wording.
For example
" Pies are tastey and not tastey " is a true statement, in that, many people find them tastey, and many don't. Is this the opposite of a contradiction?
If we were to treat that as a purely logical statement, without regard to the real world meaning of the terms, then it has the form of a contradiction. The statement "pies are tasty or not tasty" has the form of a truism.
Your example has the form of a contradiction, yet it is not a contradiction (as you explain). What this illustrates is that natural language is not strictly logical. And that's part of why logic puzzles can be a lot of fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 10:41 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by mike the wiz, posted 10-20-2005 12:32 PM nwr has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 43 of 110 (253361)
10-20-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nwr
10-20-2005 11:49 AM


Re: SHRAFF HELP
My answer would be that the opposite is a truism or tautology -- something that is always true just due to the nature of the wording.
Is this then, a tautology; If not, could you give me some simple examples. I think if I saw examples, I would know easily, for sure.
In order to get a good public health service, we need a competent man/woman incharge
Or is that begging the question?
I think I also confused a vacuous truth, with a tautology, aswell. In the sense that if brain eating monkeys lived in your skull, they'd eat your brain.
I'm trying to concentrate on the case of A never happening.
If A then B might be true, but since A never happens, it's a vacuous truth. Since there are no brain-eating monkeys despite the logic that they would eat your brain if they were true, then maybe I am thinking of too many ways to get "truth" with irrelevent premises.
Your example has the form of a contradiction, yet it is not a contradiction (as you explain).
That's ironic. I think I made a tautology, as it is true on my own terms/words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 11:49 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nwr, posted 10-20-2005 2:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 44 of 110 (253363)
10-20-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
04-30-2005 3:24 AM


Re: Logically my position is correct compared to Shraff's
just like my prof said last night...
bush's strategy in iraq was theoretically flawed. if there's peace in iraq in 20 years, all the better. it doesn't mean he was right; it just means he beat the odds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 04-30-2005 3:24 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2005 12:49 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 45 of 110 (253365)
10-20-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
05-01-2005 3:11 AM


Re: Logic can be moot itself
tautology

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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