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Author Topic:   Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 36 of 106 (253339)
10-20-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 6:51 PM


A couple thoughts on the OP:
Could someone show me in the Scriptures where it says the Scriptures are the only source for knowing about God?
First, I don't believe the Scriptures teach the sola Scriptura doctrine. In fact, I think they directly contradict it. 1 Tim 3:15 calls the church, not the Scriptures, the pillar and support of the truth. Rom 8:14 says the sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit (not the Scriptures). 1 Jn 2:27 says an anointing from the Holy One (not the Scriptures) is what will teach the church all things.
But that's not mainly what I want to address. What does sola Scriptura or "Only Scripture" mean, as in what does it apply to? You specify "the only source for knowing about God," and that narrows it a little, but usually sola Scriptura covers more than just knowing about God; it also covers knowing what God wants from you.
Should I consult the Scriptures for whether I can wear plaid pants and a striped shirt together? What about little league? Do they adress whether my kids can play team sports with other kids? If they do, can they go on to professional sports, too? What about mixed swimming in various states of dress? What about buying SUV's verse compacts? Should I never run my car a/c so that I help save the environment? Plastic or paper bags at the grocery store?
My point is that people make decisions every day without the Scriptures, even the most sola Scriptura'd people around. Only the absolutely kooky believe the Scriptures address everything. So at some point, nobody believes in sola Scriptura.
Then, even on what the Scriptures do specifically address, followers of Scripture don't agree. How important is baptism, when should it happen, how should it happen, how wet should you get, how long should you wait, etc., and that's one of the "elementary principles" according to the Scripture, and every other subject is the same way. They're all getting this from sola Scriptura, or they're getting this from sola very unreliable guesses, interpretation, biases, and denominational loyalties?
I guess I'm saying that sola Scripture seems like a moot issue, anyway, because even if it's supposed to exist, it doesn't, and it never will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 6:51 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 78 of 106 (255123)
10-27-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by iano
10-27-2005 10:30 AM


Salvation, grace, & Rom 6:23
A free gift isn't a free gift if it has to be earned. Whilst the wages of sin is death (wages (in the form of damnation) being something earned) the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. The gift is from God. And like any free gift, it only has to be accepted. Not earned.
Let's take a look at this, shall we?
With a little context:
quote:
(v. 12)Don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts, (v.13) nor yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin; but yield yourselves to God...(v.14) For sin shall not have power over you, for you are not under law, but under grace...(v.16) Don't you know that to whom you yield yourselves as servants to obey, you are his servants whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? (v.17) But God be thanked that you were servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of teaching which was delivered to you...(v.21) What fruit did you have in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. (v.22) But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants to God, you have your fruit leading to holiness, and its end, eternal life. (v.23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The entire chapter talks about choices and results of those choices. The results are called fruit, wages, and ends. You choose whom you will obey, and the result is either sin and death or righteousness, holiness, and eternal life.
To take one word, gift, and to create a whole theology that ignores everything said about the gift is madness. The wages of sin is death. If you yield yourself a servant to sin, you will die. The gift of God is eternal life, a gift given to those who yield themselves to God as servants, resulting in righteousness and holiness, the result of which is eternal life. That gift is not given to anyone else.
Just a little bit earlier in the letter, we read, "God will repay everyone according to their deeds: to those who, by patiently continuing to do good, seek after glory, honor, and immortality, he will repay eternal life. But to those who...do not obey the truth...he will repay indignation and wrath" (Rom 2:6).
Eternal life, to Paul, is always a reward for good deeds. For example:
quote:
But thou, O man of God, flee these things and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith and lay hold of eternal life (1 Tim 6:11,12).
A quick lesson on grace:
Grace is a power, assistance, or help coming from God to change a person and help them overcome sin. That is why grace is always attached to trying in the Scriptures. Rom 5:21: "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, so that as sin reigned through death, so grace might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
Rom 6:14, which we've already looked at, which says grace causes sin not to have dominion over us, is one good verse, and Heb 4:16 is another to explain grace: "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we might obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
It's common to confuse grace and mercy in modern Christians who base their theology on an incorrect definition and description of gift. They're not the same, and we are saved by grace, not mercy. Grace is a power, freely given, that enables us no longer to be slaves of sin, so that it is possible, by denying ourselves and yielding to God, to live a life of holiness and righteousness which results in eternal life. Mercy is the pardon of sin. Mercy doesn't save us. Grace saves us.
It is also common to confuse John's use of eternal life--he sees it as a present possession of the saints--with Paul's. Paul always describes eternal life as a future reward. Rom 2:6,7 is not unusual usage, but the norm for everyone but John.
(Hat's off to John, though. I love his letters and his Gospel. Theology wasn't the issue then, as it is now, and resolving eternal life down to a system was unnecessary. It is necessary, though, to know what someone is saying to you, and that means defining eternal life differently for John and Paul. It's a life from God for John, and it's immortality for Paul.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 10:30 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:02 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 92 of 106 (255173)
10-27-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
10-27-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Salvation, grace, & Rom 6:23
Hi, Jano,
Your version didn't include the word 'therefore' whereas 3 versions I have include that.
Just a technical point, but, yes, mine did. "Let not sin therefore..." It just wasn't the first word.
Okay, Romans 6:5. You wrote it as, "5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
The KJV doesn't have certainly. Nor does my Greek reference show anything that ought to be translated certainly. As far as I can tell, your reference must have tranlated kai as certainly. Kai is just your typical word for and or also.
So when you explain:
certainty of resurrection
That's not there. Yes, those united with him in death should expect to be united in his resurrection at well, but this is no verse to use to proclaim its certainty.
He is explaining the positional change that has happened (into Christ (out of Adam)).
Well, I don't agree with this, but I can't see that matters. Positional or not positional doesn't affect what's directly said later (as I'll point out in a moment).
He is pointing out the them how ludicrous it is to act in anyway contrary to the position they now hold.
I agree he is pointing out what a bad idea it is to act contrary to what he's describing. However, that's my point, not yours. My point is that it's possible to act contrary to what he's describing. That's why he's describing it, because some people are acting contrary to it, so he wants them to see what's true and start acting in accordance with it.
I'm thinking you just said you agree with that. You said it was ludicrous to act contrary to this position, not impossible.
The issue is, when some people are acting contrary to this, when they are saying that grace abounds, so let's sin, and when they are yielding their members as servants to sin, what's the consequence?
Sin? How can you? Do you not realise what has happened to you? You were trapped under law, in sin, dead to God but you have been translated out of that into something else - out of Adam and into Christ. Sin remains but now only in your mortal body. It's going to die but resist it precisely because of what your spiritual position is
I agree with this totally. You use "resist" here; I used "try" in my post. He's obviously saying all this to convince someone of something. I say he's saying it to convince people who are not resisting that they ought to resist.
I think you have said you agree with that in your post.
[cut excessive wordiness here]
So, with 6:1-11 mostly agreed upon, what is the consequence to those who don't resist?
I say, and I reference my previous post, vv.12-23 say that there is fruit, end, and wages to that choice to resist or not resist. Grace empowers you. The "position" in Christ is the ground of that grace. We are agreed on all that. But, if you don't resist and, ludicrously, as you put it, yield yourself to sin so that grace may abound, then the end is death. If you resist (which implies trying and effort) then you get the end, righteousness, which results in eternal life.
Is that not what it says, even using the interpretations you just gave?
This message has been edited by truthlover, 10-27-2005 04:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 12:48 PM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 93 of 106 (255175)
10-27-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nwr
10-27-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Use your head
Sure, some people go through a conversion experience. But that's largely psychological, and the effect eventually wears off. The "born again" alcoholic goes back to drinking. The "born again" gambler goes back to gambling.
That's because over 2,000 years Christianity has become a facade, a caricature. It's really just play acting what used to be real.
But that involves a lot of hard work, and perhaps requires help from their friends.
I disagree with the word "perhaps" here. It should be something resembling "in almost every case."
It is written, "Encourage one another every day...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."
Do you know anyone who does that or gets that? Every day?
Mostly, people are just play acting what used to be real.
When you do it the real way...you know, where you lose your own life and enter the kingdom/church/community of God, almost no one goes back to drinking or gambling.
Unfortunately, on a large scale, I have to appeal to history to back up that statement. Origen's boastfulness about the communities of Christ in the early 200's are a great source for that. On a smaller scale, though...200 people and 15 years, we're getting the same results Origen got. People are not only staying away from old vices, but actually becoming extraordinarily happy and unselfish.
The "faith vs. works" arguments trivialize the difficulties, and reduce a very real problem to word play.
Yep. When you quit play acting, and start keeping tabs of results, (Y'shua called it "judging by fruit"), the faith vs. works arguments, and most other arguments, go out the window, eclipsed by the need to DO things: make decisions, help people, serve, battle the mortal body, and generally live and know God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nwr, posted 10-27-2005 3:57 PM nwr has not replied

  
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