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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 204 (253138)
10-19-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
10-19-2005 5:12 PM


Okay
You're a nubee. I suspected as much and in the future, I'll try to keep that in mind.
I welcome you on the journey and hope to be along as you begin learning more and more about this marvelous religion.
I'm what can best be described as a Creedal Christian.
'Try' Jar. Where is it? Biblically
Try, is inherent in every single part of the Biblical message. I've pointed this out to you many times but I'll try once more.
Do you think GOD is stupid?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:12 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:47 PM jar has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 137 of 204 (253142)
10-19-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
10-19-2005 5:14 PM


Re: On Romans
jar writes:
When Paul speaks to those known as Saints in Rome he's speaking to the Church in Rome. To Christians.
Agreed.
If they are Christians they've heard the Gospel.
I don't mean to be obtuse but where do you get this idea?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:43 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 204 (253144)
10-19-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by iano
10-19-2005 5:40 PM


Re: On Romans
They are Christians?
You cannot be a Christian if you have not heard the Gospel, the Good News. That is the most basic definition of a Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:40 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 204 (253147)
10-19-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-19-2005 5:30 PM


Re: Okay
jar writes:
You're a nubee. I suspected as much and in the future, I'll try to keep that in mind. I welcome you on the journey and hope to be along as you begin learning more and more about this marvelous religion.
Cheers. It truly is the best thing in the world. Although I'd have to disagree a little on 'religion'. "Religon" means "concerning the law". But Christianity primarily concerns grace. But lets not worry about it for now...
I'm what can best be described as a Creedal Christian.
Whats that in a nutshell.
Try, is inherent in every single part of the Biblical message. I've pointed this out to you many times but I'll try once more.
I'm a sola scripturalist Christian so I really only understand it if it could be spelt out biblically. It seems to me that as soon as you get off scripture you can wander down a load of man-made paths. I have them knocking at my door all the time already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:57 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 204 (253150)
10-19-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
10-19-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Okay
Creedal Christians outline their beliefs in what are know as the Creeds, the best known being the Nicene Creed.
I'm a sola scripturalist Christian so I really only understand it if it could be spelt out biblically.
If that is really true, which I most fervently doubt, then you would agree that GOD is truly stupid, far more stupid than anyone could imagine.
If you really are a sola scripturalist Christian you can hold know other honest opinion. See Genesis 2:18-20.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 5:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 6:09 PM jar has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 141 of 204 (253159)
10-19-2005 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
10-19-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Okay
Jar writes:
If that is really true, which I most fervently doubt, then you would agree that GOD is truly stupid, far more stupid than anyone could imagine.If you really are a sola scripturalist Christian you can hold know other honest opinion. See Genesis 2:18-20.
That was my last bleedin qs for today....
If you are pointing (obliquely) to God being on the verge of making woman then I'd have to agr....oops better not...disagree
If your making some reference to the good ship evolution then I'd point out that sola scripturalist doesn't mean literalist.
If your making some other reference then you'll have to elaborate
That's me for the day Jar. Night

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 5:57 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 204 (253161)
10-19-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by iano
10-19-2005 4:47 PM


Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
You quoted:
quote:
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable O man, whosoever thou art that judgest...
Romans 2: 6 "who will render to every man according to his deeds"
which contains the word "whosoever" - but in what context?
"Whosoever thou art that judgest" doesn't sound like a universal declaration to all mankind, does it? It's hardly on a par with Jesus' "whosoever hearesth my words", is it?
Whaddya think Ringo: universal or no?
I think no.
Galations 8" But though we, or an angel from heaven,(or Jar) preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Seems they had the 'Roman' gospel already Ringo.
But we're not talking about "the gospel". I asked you where Paul said to the Galatians, etc. anything about condemnation under the law. That's the topic - remember? I say that Paul's message which you quoted way, way back was intended for the Romans and only the Romans. I have asked you many times now to show that the message of condemnation was universal in all of his epistles. You have not done that.
If Jesus didn't say it was simple why should..etc, etc. He said nothing neither simple/nor comlplicated.
Exactly. He said nether simple nor complicated.
Have you ever heard of Rube Goldberg? In your work as a mechanical engineer, do you delberately put in needless complications? If a customer doesn't say to you, "I want this that and the other bells and whistles", do you put them in? Or do you design the simplest possible machine that will do the job?
Point being: simple is the default condition. If Jesus didn't specify complications, it's safe to conclude that there aren't any.
I said:
quote:
In case it has escaped your notice, Jesus is God and Paul was not.
to which you replied:
In case it has escaped your notice, it is ALL - according to our earlier agreement "as if dictated by God"....
You're still not getting it, are you? Read my lips: We are assuming that Jesus' words are accurate and that Paul's words are accurate. We are not assuming that every word in the Bible is of equal importance.
What's more important: what Homer Simpson says or what Moe the bartender says? Hint: Homer is the star of the show. He gets all the best lines. He's in every scene.
Similarly, God/Jesus is the star of the Bible. He has all the best lines. He's in every scene. Everybody else is just a "staight-man", feeding God/Jesus lines to riff on.
What Jesus says is more important than what Paul said. Learn that.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 4:47 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 7:55 AM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 204 (253281)
10-20-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
10-19-2005 6:11 PM


Re: Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
iano writes:
Whaddya think Ringo: universal or no?
Ringo writes:
I think no.
Fair enough.
You've got Jesus addressing specific people and a word "whosoever"
I've got Paul addressing specific people and a word "whosoever"
What contextual comparison to you pose next to separate them into univeresal/non-universal. Cos at the moment they are the same.
Ringo writes:
But we're not talking about "the gospel". I asked you where Paul said to the Galatians, etc. anything about condemnation under the law.
Galatians 10 "cursedis everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"
Galatians 13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.."
In your work as a mechanical engineer, do you delberately put in needless complications?
Needless. No. I put in as much complication as I need to achieve the result I want to achieve. Simple and complex are completely relative terms. What seems simple to me usually seems impossibly complex to the customer. If the purpose of the law was that we could follow it then it would have been made simple enough for us to follow it. If the purpose of the law was that we couldn't follow it then complex enough it would have been made to ensure that.
The discussion is about which is it. You can't just presume the purpose. Here, you have the chance to demonstrate it. Jesus said 'do'. A command. That's all he said. Demonstrate biblically how you can fulfill it or that you don't have to fulfill it all... or whatever. But none of this subjective "it must be because that's what makes sense to me". Biblical Ringo biblical.
You're still not getting it, are you? Read my lips: We are assuming that Jesus' words are accurate and that Paul's words are accurate. We are not assuming that every word in the Bible is of equal importance.
We're assuming (at least we agreed to earlier) that all scripture is the word of God. Even Jesus said this of his own teaching on a number of occasions "My teaching is not my own but is from him who sent me" John 7:16. Jesus words are from God, Pauls words are from God, Johns words are from God. So none of it can contradict itself. Only complement itself, explain itself, exposit on itself.
Paul doesn't contradict anything Jesus says. Paul is as permissable as Jesus.
What Jesus says is more important than what Paul said. Learn that
Jesus is the lamp. But a lamp don't run without a fuse in the plug. The bulb is more important that the 2c fuse but the fuse is as essential as the bulb. You can't have one without the other.
Neither were we meant to
This message has been edited by iano, 20-Oct-2005 12:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 10-19-2005 6:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 12:13 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 204 (253350)
10-20-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
10-20-2005 7:55 AM


Re: Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
iano writes:
You've got Jesus addressing specific people and a word "whosoever"
I've got Paul addressing specific people and a word "whosoever"
What contextual comparison to you pose next to separate them into univeresal/non-universal. Cos at the moment they are the same.
Sigh. I'll explain it one more time:
Jesus: speaking to a specific group of people, says "whosoever heareth these sayings...." He doesn't limit that to the people present. Iano has heard his sayings. Ringo has heard His sayings. What He is saying is universal.
Paul: speaking to a specific group of people, says "whosoever judgeth...." He might as well be saying "whosoever weareth brown shoes...." It does not clearly refer to everybody.
(I know you're going tp say that everybody judges, but that's a whole other topic. My point is that Jesus is clearly speaking universally. Paul's "universality" has not been established.)
I said:
quote:
I asked you where Paul said to the Galatians, etc. anything about condemnation under the law.
to which you finally responded:
quote:
Galatians 10 "cursedis everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"
Galatians 13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.."
First of all, it would help if you would cite chapter and verse. Since Galatians only has six chapters, your citation could be confusing to some .
Second, it could be argued that a "curse" is not the same as "condemnation". For example, women talk of menstruation as "the curse", but it is also a great blessing.
Third, as Goldfinger said, "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence...." Perhaps the Romans and the Galatians had similar problems. What about the Ephesians, the Colossians, the Thessalonians, the Philippians? You have yet to establish something resembling universality in Paul's epistles (though that is probably a topic in itself).
If the purpose of the law was that we could follow it then it would have been made simple enough for us to follow it.
"Love thy neighbour as thyself." Pretty simple. (And if you say it is impossible to do that 100%, show us where the Bible requires 100% success.)
If the purpose of the law was that we couldn't follow it then complex enough it would have been made to ensure that.
But you haven't shown that that is the purpose of the law. You said, way, way back, that the "sole purpose" of the law was to make us feel condemned. I've been saying that the main purpose of the law is to guide us in living our lives. We may sometimes feel condemned by the law, but that is not it's purpose. So far, you haven't been able to show that even Paul said otherwise.
Jesus said 'do'. A command.
Actually, Jesus said "love". (You really need to spend more time in the gospels .)
And it's not that odious a "command", is it? Loving is kind of fun.
Demonstrate biblically how you can fulfill it or that you don't have to fulfill it all....
No no no no.... You're the one who claims that the "sole purpose" of the law is to condemn us, to be impossible to fulfil. You show us Biblically where 100% success is required.
Once again, "the best you can do" is the default condition. As jar has been trying to show you, only a stupid and/or vindictive God would demand that we do more than we can do. Please have a little respect for God.
Biblical Ringo biblical.
Ironic, considering how hard it is to get a Bible quote out of you.
Paul doesn't contradict anything Jesus says. Paul is as permissable as Jesus.
I never said that Paul isn't "permissible". But Paul has to be taken in context. There's a reason why the epistle to the Romans is addressed "to the Romans" and not to "whosoever heareth my sayings".
Until you can demonstrate that what Paul said to the Romans was universal, what he said is of no value in this discussion.
(By the way, if your position does make sense, why can't you establish it using only the words of Jesus?)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 7:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 1:00 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 145 of 204 (253374)
10-20-2005 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
10-20-2005 12:13 PM


Re: Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
ringo writes:
Sigh. I'll explain it one more time:
I'm glad you did, we might be getting somewhere. I said "might"
Jesus: speaking to a specific group of people, says "whosoever heareth these sayings...." He doesn't limit that to the people present. Iano has heard his sayings. Ringo has heard His sayings. What He is saying is universal.
Jesus is addressing "whosoever hears...". If universal its universal only to whoever hears...
(I know you're going tp say that everybody judges, but that's a whole other topic. My point is that Jesus is clearly speaking universally. Paul's "universality" has not been established.
....like universal to whoever judges
AbE:
Just to keep track:
Jesus, specific address in time, "whoever hears", universal to whoseover hears
Paul, specific address in time, "whoever judges", universal to whoever judges
I'll hold off on the rest of your post for now. We obviously need to get something established here. One can hardly talk about what the bible says if what constitutes the bible is open to such detailed debate
This message has been edited by iano, 20-Oct-2005 06:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 1:26 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 204 (253395)
10-20-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by iano
10-20-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
iano writes:
Jesus is addressing "whosoever hears...". If universal its universal only to whoever hears...
Hark! What's that I "hear"? Sounds mighty like straws being clutched at.
Surely you're not so much of a literalist as to insist that "hears" means only "hears". I think it reasonably applies to people who "hear" the same words spoken by an apostle or a priest or a pastor. And I think it reasonably applies to people who "hear" the words via radio or television. And I think it reasonably applies to people who read the words - whether in the Bible or on a billboard. And I think it reasonably applies to blind people who read the words in Braille and to deaf people who "read" the words in sign language.
Universal enough for you?
So stop splitting hairs, eh?
...like universal to whoever judges
Like I said before, the universality of "judging" is not a road you want to go down, especially if you don't want a detailed debate.
Let's make this simple for you: show us that what Paul said to the Romans was universal. Show us that he said the same things about condemnation (or "the curse") to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Colossians, the Thessalonians and the Philippians. Even if you could show that he said the same thing to a majority of those churches, it would strengthen your case for universality.
Until you can do that, Paul's words are specific and don't count here.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 1:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 2:14 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 147 of 204 (253415)
10-20-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
10-20-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Jesus > Paul - Get used to it.
ringo writes:
Surely you're not so much of a literalist as to insist that "hears" means only "hears". I think it reasonably applies to people who "hear" the same words spoken by an apostle or a priest or a pastor. And I think it reasonably applies to people who "hear" the words via radio or television. And I think it reasonably applies to people who read the words - whether in the Bible or on a billboard. And I think it reasonably applies to blind people who read the words in Braille and to deaf people who "read" the words in sign language.
argumentitive: possibly, obtuse: hopefully not. I grant hearing would mean hearing from whoever and reading whereever. But you seem to exclude the possibility of debate re: judging but proceed to carry out a one man debate above.
How many of the world population past and present has been part of the hearing group: many. How many haven't: many.
who judges? many who doesn't judge? many (I'll grant though I don't believe it for a second)
Neck and neck so far on universality Ringo - superflous and self-ordained weighting such as deciding who can debate and when - nothwithstanding
I'm off to worship practice/ L8r dude

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 3:18 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 204 (253446)
10-20-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by iano
10-20-2005 2:14 PM


the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
iano writes:
... you seem to exclude the possibility of debate re: judging....
No. I said the debate on judging is not one that we want to get into here. Start an appropriate topic.
It is abundantly clear that Jesus' "whosoever heareth my sayings" was intended to be universal. Have you forgotten this?
quote:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
We have until "the end" comes for everybody to hear. Or are you suggesting that Jesus' message isn't universal?
On the other hand, you have yet to show us that Paul's message was universal even among his own epistles. Show us what Paul said about condemnation under the law to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 2:14 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:05 AM ringo has replied
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 8:45 AM ringo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 149 of 204 (253594)
10-21-2005 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
10-20-2005 3:18 PM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Ringo316 writes:
We have until "the end" comes for everybody to hear. Or are you suggesting that Jesus' message isn't universal?
I don't think that iano is suggesting that Christ's words aren't universal. I think he's suggesting that Christ gave Paul some authority to make universal statements in Christ's name.
Consequently, speaking of "the end", Peter speaks of "the end" in II Peter -- using quite spectacular language I might add:
NIV writes:
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Ringo316 writes:
On the other hand, you have yet to show us that Paul's message was universal even among his own epistles. Show us what Paul said about condemnation under the law to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Peter, speaking of "the end", appears to have been aware of Paul's writings and approved of them.
NIV writes:
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Just sayin'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 3:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 10-21-2005 10:58 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 150 of 204 (253598)
10-21-2005 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
10-19-2005 1:42 PM


Re: On Romans
jar writes:
The Christians in Rome had the Scriptures and Gospel, what they didn't have was Paul's personal version of what the Franchise should be. Romans is Paul trying to impose his version of Christianity on the Christians in Rome.
Buh?
Could you elaborate on this one a bit more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 1:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-21-2005 10:14 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
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