Religion versus Constitution

The other day, while listening to the radio on my way home from work (ok . I confess . it was NPR), I heard in interview with several evangelical Christians about their feelings on the Harriet Meirs nomination. Many responses where what I would consider typical (We need a good Christian on the Bench . I believe Christians morals are important . I think we have lost our morality and Harriet Meirs would be good? . blah, blah, blah), but one in particular really set me off. This one gentleman said, that if given a choice between an Evangelical Christian with no understanding whatsoever of Constitutional law (a pretty good description of Harriet Meirs?) and Secularist with an in-depth, comprehensive understanding of Constitutional law, he would pick the Evangelical. I SCREAMED at my radio? Hell, I’m still pissed!So let me ask this of Evangelicals Christians. Do you agree with this statement. If so, why? Do you seriously put your religion before the Constitution? If so, how do you justify it? I’m just curious as to whether or not this is the norm.I guess I just can’t wrap my head around how someone living in this Country would agree to having one groups religious ideals serve as the law of the land. Isn’t that a very Un-American point of view, or is it just me? Don’t these people get it?Actually, let me expand the scope of the question and ask: “Who out there thinks that their religious views should supersede the Constitution?” I know that we already have one thread going about nationality versus religion. However, while I think that this is a related topic, I also believe that it is a more important question to ask.This would belong in the Coffee House I guess.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.AbE: Moved here because this has to do with the social consequences of belief.This message has been edited by AdminBen, Thursday, 2005/10/20 07:11 AM

You might be interested in taking a quick look at this short thread:Poll: Religion or NationalityI think the results there (that belief comes before secular concerns) fit with what you're observing. Note that in the poll results, it's not just Evangelistic Christians that take this standpoint.I would say the reason Evangelistic Christians (at least the caller you mentioned) take the stance that they (he) takes (took) is because other religions don't conflict so much with "Constitutional Law" and, more importantly, the interests of other people. Most people seem to have a sense of "live and let live" and "we live together let's share a common law together" that seem to be missing in Evangelists. I get a sense of "either my way or no way."In conclusion, then, I think this would be true of any ideaological group unwilling to compromise. Evangelistic Christians just seem to be one easy example of that.Ben

it is an excessively un-american view. however, they are free to hold it. just god help me if there are more of them than intelligent people.*sigh* the problem is that we're a republic. our governance is ultimately dependant on the people. if the people are stupid enough, we can end up throwing away all that we have fought for... really, a government should be a trust with highly screened people running it because people will never stay educated enough to ensure a properly run democracy (or derivative thereof... case in point). when paris hilton's most recent nipple slip is more important to us than who gets put on the bench....This message has been edited by brennakimi, 10-20-2005 10:47 AM

I think what really gets to me the most is the fact that they just don't get it! We're (liberals) are called unpatriotic or unamerican because of many of our views. We oppose the war...we oppose the erosions of our personal freedoms in the name of "catching terrorists", we oppose a ban on gay marriage, we stand up for environmental causes...basically we DARE to voice our opinions against this administrations policies, and somehow are considered unpatriotic for of doing so. It's the very principle on which a free democracy is founded for fucks sake! But yet they (Evangelicals) simply ignore this basic princilple because either they don't seem to notice or they don't seem to care. Do you think they believe a true patriot is someone that tries to shove their religious views down our throats?I guess I'm most eager to hear how or why they think that an Evangelical Christion on the Supreme Court is a good and/or a patriotic thing. I don't argue that they want it, I just want to know how they can support it. Seriously, which group seems to be the most patriotic? Those that want to protect and uphold our Consitution, even when we disagree with a result. Or those that want to trample and change our Constitution to fit their beliefs.

If we had a Roman Catholic president, or a Mormon president, who was arguing for faith-based social programs and voucher programs for religious schools, I have a suspicion that the evangelical Christians would somehow get it.

but don't you see. those are the values of an ideological society.. not a liberalist (democratic) one. democracy is rule by the people. if the majority is made up of sheep, then you'll get shepherd policy. that's the problem with democracy. that's why it doesn't work. and that's why we have the electoral congress. because the people aren't smart enough to take care of themselves. we are, but we're the minority. this country was founded by the minority of elite intellectuals and is now populated by town idiots.

Be a bit careful with that poll. The question it is asking is very different from the sentiment expressed by those people on that radio show.The people who want to turn the US into a Christian theocracy want to have their religion and their nationality to be one and the same. That poll was asking that given the choice which one would you choose.It is perfectly reasonable to say that I would choose my Christianity over my American citizenship yet still say that I oppose those who want to make Christianity the official religion of the US. That in fact is my position.

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No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I may not meet your criteria of Evangelical Christian but I most certainly do not agree with that statement. People who think that way need to be fought at ever opportunity. Yes I do but that is a very different question then the one I think you really meant which is, "DO you seriously believe your religion should supplant the Constitution"? I can consider my religion more important than the Constitution and still believe that the Constitution is mostly correct and needs to be protected from those who would destroy it. For right wing evangelical Christians it might very well be.There may not be an easy solution to this problem. The issue is requiring a battle and the most dangerous people on the other side are the revisionists who wish to paint a picture of early America as one of the ideal society by God's decree.In fact it is even more of a problem in general for those who believe that our founding fathers are some kind of authoritarians of real democracy no matter if you believe they were God fearing Christians or God acknowledging Deists. The founding fathers set up the Constitution to make sure that land owning white males were the only ones who could make the decisions. It took more than a century to change that and yet I get the feeling that most people think that American has always been some kind of ideal democracy that is now being broken by crooked politicians and an apathetic or disenfranchised citizenry. It has always been that way. We should be continually improving upon the broken system that our founding fathers first presented rather than trying to "preserve" some kind of idealism that just does not or has never existed.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 10-20-2005 11:14 AM

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No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

As a former evangelical fundamentalist, let me confirm that many, if not most, evangelical fundamentalists are not interested in constitutional democracy. What they want is a theocracy based on their religious views. Constitutional democracy is alright by them if society is like Puritan New England: a society where everyone belongs to the same church and holds the same views as they do.But they have no respect for the idea that no one can be assured that their own views might be wrong (and, in fact, that is the source of most of my contempt for fundamentalism -- that they have no humility, that they cannot conceive that they just might be mistaken in their beliefs!), and so therefore that the best way to make decisions (that is, with the least likelihood of making mistakes and the greatest likelihood of correcting mistakes that are made) is through the collective wisdom of an informed, engaged populace, and that since no views are guaranteed correct the best way to organize society is to allow individual freedom of conscience and personal liberty in the privacy of their own homes and organizations.But once you become 100% that your way is the only correct way, and that the vengeful, Old Testament deity will punish everyone (including you!) for the sins of a few, then you become committed to a proper, Christian society, despite the viewpoints of anyone, by any means necessary.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Hi Jazzns,Sorry, I tried to explain how I thought the poll related to the question Flies was asking (and thus imply that I think they're asking different questions). Your comment makes me think I did a bad job making that clear. I can remove the poll from that post, if you think it's very unclear. Right. I was trying to say that the poll shows people (generally) prioritize their faith over their nationality. The extra step that I tried to make was to say, those who have faith where it is OK to
"tread" on the beliefs and lives of other will thus believe that the interests of the church should be reflected in the government. In other words, they believe government should be a theocracy.I said Evangelistic Christians seem like a good example of such a group. I also mentioned that I doubt they're the only group that exhibits such sentiments, and in fact I think any group that believes ideaology is more important than nationality (whether the ideaology is religious or not), and who are not worried about treading on the toes of others, would exhibit the same characteristics.Anyway, thanks for pointing out that we need to be careful with the poll. There's no doubt that the poll question and Flies' question are different.Ben

I agree...and that pisses me off even more cuz it only makes me believe that they already "get it", meaning, of course, that they just don't care. Bastards!

Indeed they "get it". After all, whenever a school celebrates Halloween or when a TV show talks about evolution they are the major complainers about other peoples' beliefs being crammed down their throats. In fact, they are all into "ideas being crammed down peoples' throats" -- just as long as it is their ideas and they are the ones doing the cramming.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

You are correct...my mistake. See, I knew someone would come along a explain it better than I ever could.

Which is why I was SCREAMING at my radio. Some of these people sounded so nice and sweet..how could anyone possibly disagree with them. They just want a nice, quite society oozing with peace and love. I was livid. What a complete crock of shit...but they have a voice that's for sure.
I am very troubled by this. I truly fear that if Harriet Meirs is confirmed, that we will begin to quickly head down a road from which it will be difficult to deviate. A road that personally scares the crap out of me.Edited to fix typos (I accidently hit "Submit Now" when I wanted to hit "Preview")This message has been edited by FliesOnly, 10-20-2005 03:27 PM