What is The Atonement?

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jews today atone without making sacrifices in the traditional sense, how do you suppose they do it? we just went through that particular holy-day.

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For all practical purposes, the sacrifices ended at the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem abut 70 AD. The Jews were scattered and unorganized without city, priesthood and temple. I've heard that some of the orthodox devouts do some with birds today, but not apprised on the particulars.Scriptural prophetically speaking, God intended for them to end after the once and for all acceptible atonement Jesus made for sins on the cross. There was no longer a need for Levitical sacrifices.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the point that i'm really trying to get at is that atonement is not dependent on sacrifice; sacrifice is only a portion of it. and today, it is an unneccessary portion, even for jews.they HAD to find some other method when the temple was detroyed -- they can't very well sacrifice at the dome of the rock, but that's the place god ordained for them.some think that when the messiah comes back, it will be reinstated -- but they don't think they're all going to hell because they're not killing anything.

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אָרַח

Thank you much for your feedback.

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the point that i'm really trying to get at is that atonement is not dependent on sacrifice;

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But according to both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures, without the sacrifices, there is no atonement.

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sacrifice is only a portion of it. and today, it is an unneccessary portion, even for jews.

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Regardless of what they do, their scriptures still require a sacrifice, and contrary to what they may believe, the prophecies in their scriptures prophesied the events of the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus who was to fulfill that need.

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they HAD to find some other method when the temple was detroyed -- they can't very well sacrifice at the dome of the rock, but that's the place god ordained for them.

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That's just it. God, who sent their messiah whom they rejected saw to it that there would be no place for the scrifices which they no longer needed, Jesus fulfilling that role. This is significant lending credence to the sovereignty of God relative to his purpose and plan.

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some think that when the messiah comes back, it will be reinstated -- but they don't think they're all going to hell because they're not killing anything.

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Those who receive God's provision become saved like everyone else. The scriptures prophecy a millenial temple for when Jesus returns. Most believe it will be built before his return. I disagree. It will be built by Jesus to suit himself after he returns. The only likely role any sacrifice will play is a commemorative role, commemorating the sacrifice Jesus made

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

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Psalm 40:7 (JPS)

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You gave me to understand that
You do not desire sacrifice and meal offering;
You do not ask for burnt offering and sin offering.

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Hosea 14:3 (JPS)

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Take the words with you
And return to the LORD.
Say to Him:
"Forgive all guilt
And accept what is good;
Instead of bulls we will pay
[The offering of] our lips."

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we've discussed this before. it basically came down to the fundamentalists arguing that prophecies get fulfilled twice, and the rest of us saying "uh, if you read the context, it's pretty clearly talking about something else."i can't find an appropriate way to answer the rest of this, sorry. it dances on the edge of offense.

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אָרַח

i think that makes a little more sense, having read it. but i should note also that there are kings who do wrong and do not find favor anyways -- for instance, every king of israel in the divided kingdom: "the sin of jeroboam."

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אָרַח

Regarding Ezekial's detailed vision of atonement sacrifices, extreme symmetries of measurements within the temple, precise parallel divisions of land inheritances for the 12 tribes of Israel, etc., and other levital excellencies . . Many *3-D* Christians perceive that vision was a legalistic *type* of the Apocalyptic Christ ruling and reigning the earth, and was valid for persons under Levitical dispensation(s), and, like the Law of Moses, was fulfilled in Christ and *done away with*.The Book of Revelation (and the entire NT for that matter) seems to portray the Lamb of God without any other sacrifices commemorating Christ. I realize psalms and prophets (Old Testament) state nations shall bring gifts and sacrifices to Jerusalem and offer bullocks upon the altar (similar to Ezekial’s verbatim).Seeing Christ’s eternal sacrifice was *bloody* enough for all ages, and that the *millennial reign of Christ ruling and reigning with a rod of iron* seems a Levitical dispensation of sorts, I can’t dogmatically refute your *commemorative sacrifices*.But I perceive there will be enough *grace* for many millennial inhabitants to *obey and believe* on the *Lamb of God*/Immanuel. At that time, all prior ages with their visionary sacrifices, may seem dreamy and metaphorical.One glance of the Lamb might be worth a thousand thousand bullock atonements, don’t you think?This message has been edited by Philip, 10-24-2005 11:43 AM