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Author
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Topic: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: The Purple Candle
Mr.Ex Nihilo writes: He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak. well... he's not talking to me ! do you think it's my aftershave ??
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: The Purple Candle
sorry Mr. Ex, I just can't help but reacting with a dose of healthy sarcasm to sweeping, unsupported statements like the one above. I suppose you could say God made me that way! P.S Yes I did read the rest of your post. I still think you made a sweeping, unsupported statement. P.P.S: I feel a bit put out. I mean... everyone that ever existed, exists and will exist.......apart from me!!! 
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: The Purple Candle
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: I can point these things out in the Scriptures, but I'm fairly sure you won't accept that.
oh, go on then!
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: You've never went to do something wrong and then, because your conscience told you it was wrong, decided not to do the action? Yes, but that was my conscience talking, not God. also, on a couple of occasions I've decided to do something wrong and then went ahead and did it anyway! Was God asleep on these occasions?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: The Purple Candle
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: I already have explained many things in detail. What else could I say? maybe you could show where in the scriptures you base your statement below,
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: He's revealing himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak. while you're at it maybe you could also show me how am I supposed to know that God is talking to me.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 64 of 171 (250520)
10-10-2005 5:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by bkelly
10-10-2005 5:15 PM
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Re: The Purple Candle
Hi bkelly, I'm not expecting an answer either, my question is largely rhetorical. just makes you wonder though: if the whole thing was true, wouldn't it make more sense for the devil to be 'talking' to people in order to steer them off the path of God ?!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by bkelly, posted 10-10-2005 5:15 PM | | bkelly has replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: OmniPresent
yes you're quite right, the references are of an omnipresent observer not a communicator. I'm sure Mr Ex will enlighten us.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 10-10-2005 5:40 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Psalm 19, that you quoted, celebrates the creation that reveals God. "The heavens declare........the skies proclaim ....
quote:
The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
How does that -or anywhere else in Psalm 19- allude that God is 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??
quote:
Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -” his eternal power and divine nature ”- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (emphasis is mine).
this again says that God can be seen in creation - what's this got to do with God 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??
quote:
Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead"
The whole of Hebrews 11 is about faith - this verse says because Abel's sacrifice was offered in faith, while Cain's was not, Abel is saved, he's a member of the 'hall of faith' (v.13) that's why he still speaks with his faith. So what's this got to do with God 'talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak' ??
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: You both have apparently have not read this...
Mr Ex, you've replied by quoting from here and there like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle that won't fit . Can you try to keep it tidy please, it's hard to follow. You're using Romans 10 as your basis. Let me see if I got your argument right:
Mr. Ex Nihilo says (in a nuthsell) writes:
- Paul emphasises the necessity for preaching the gospel (v.14-15) - Paul quotes Isaiah, who prophesied of the rejection of the gospel from Israel (v16-17) -Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 which testifies to the fact that the word has gone forth, so Israel must have heard it. (v18)
is that the crux of your argument, more or less ? please confirm and we'll take it from there.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: You both have apparently have not read this...
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: My point is that, contrary to what you have claimed, the psalm does seem to portray God speaking in a very literal sense throughout various mediums outside the Scriptures. There is nothing literal about the Psalm itself. Can't you read ? It's the *heavens* that declare, the *skies* that proclaim. When was the last time you heard the heavens and the skies literally speaking ?!
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: I've also pointed out that Paul seems to be concluding that this speech is so obvious that people who hear it are held accountable to it.
so Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 which testifies to the fact that the word has gone forth, so Israel must have heard it. Just like I said in my previous post, when I tried to summarize your position.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: In addition to this, I've pointed out that the scope of this speech has gone out to the ends of the earth, is not limited strictly to the Israelites, and has been perceivable since the very beginning. I generally agree here (though you could use 'speech' instead of speech, as it's not the literal meaning of the word), apart from the last bit: what makes you think that this 'speech' is perceived since the very beginning and wasn't heard only once ? Also what is this 'speech' about ? What is it that the Israelites (and everyone else) were supposed to have heard ?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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This one's about debating style.
Mr Ex writes: Actually, they fit together very well once you get rid of your assumptive baggage that you carry over from your former denominational faith Here we go again! You don't even know what my former denominational faith was but you still assume I'm carrying assumptive baggage. Nice way to support your argument! (not)
Mr Ex writes: ....and you're most certainly not very interested in understanding God (since you've admitted your questions are largely rhetorical and all). You're not back to your old tactics of mis-representing (i.e. lying about) my position are you ? when did I admit that my questions are largely rhetorical? even if I had how would you conclude from that I'm not very interested in understanding God ?! I said that one question to you was largely rhetorical, the one in Message 62 Legend writes: while you're at it maybe you could also show me how am I supposed to know that God is talking to me. And that was in response to Message 63 where bkelly said:
bkelly writes: He has not answered the question. I suspect he will not give you an answer either. and guess what? he was right - you never answered. So I hope you'll correct this litle 'misinterpretation' of yours in your next message, right ? I'd expect something along the lines of :
Mr.Ex will writes: I have no idea whether Legend is very interested in understanding God or not. He also never admitted that his questions were largely rhetorical. But I felt good writing that he did, and it hopefully made readers who haven't read the full thread think that my vague, unsupported arguments were good response to a flippant, spiteful atheist. Sorry, I'll try not to do this again. thank you!!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 90 of 171 (251375)
10-13-2005 5:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Hawkins
10-13-2005 12:02 AM
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Re: This one's about debating style.
Hawkins writes: It makes no difference, He revealed himself to Adam yet Adam chose to sin. You will do the same, especially when you are equipped with pride. Perhaps it's more efficient for people in history to actually *believe in* a perceivable but invisible God. Why not *choose* to ask Him this question when you are in Heaven, with your pride and sins removed. BTW, Noah and Moses may have to disagree with you. and this is in response to.........?
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Hawkins, posted 10-13-2005 12:02 AM | | Hawkins has not replied |
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: This one's about debating style.
Do you really don't get it or are you just pretending you're not getting it ? Let me repeat:
Legend writes: Here we go again! You don't even know what my former denominational faith was but you still assume I'm carrying assumptive baggage. Nice way to support your argument! (not) that's pretty self-explanatory.
Legend writes: when did I admit that my questions are largely rhetorical? even if I had how would you conclude from that I'm not very interested in understanding God ?! I said that one question to you was largely rhetorical, the one in Re: The Purple Candle (Message 62) I asked one question ('can you show me how do I know that God is talking to me') which I later said was largely rhetorical as I didn't really expect an answer from you (indeed I never received one). You're saying that all my questions are rhetorical (which I never said or indicated) and -on top- you're using this false statement to conclude that I'm not very interested in understanding God (which again I never said or indicated - why would I be on a religious board asking questions if I wasn't interested in understanding God). This is why I'm accusing you of mis-representing my position! Get it ?!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: This one's about debating style.
Mr Ex writes:
In saying that the question ('can you show me how do I know that God is talking to me') is largely rhetorical (as you don't really expect an answer from me) -- you're basically implying that you don't really care what my opinion is or whether or not God is actually really talking to you. If you don't really care what my opinion is or whether or not God is actually really talking to you, then this single admission of rhetoric basically undermines the intent of the entire scope of all your questions about God which are directed to me. Am I wrong? yes, you are! did it ever cross your mind that if I say that I don't really expect an answer from you might be because I don't think you can answer the question? It's like asking someone 'what is the square root of pi?' I'm not expecting an answer, not because I don't care about their opinion, neither because I don't want to know what the square root of pi really is, it's just because I don't think they can answer me. I'm not expecting you to show me how God is talking to me because I know you can't. This doesn't mean that all my other questions are rhetorical too, neither than that I'm not very interested in understanding God, like you've said.
Mr Ex writes: On top of all this, you still haven't answered me what your former denominational background was. It's because it's irrelevant. It would just give you yet another way of evading questions by going on about what my former denominational church taught, rather than what my arguments really are.
Mr Ex writes: You've been trolling me Legend right from the get go -- and it's really getting quite annoying now.
I've got better things to do than troll you Mr Ex. You (yet again) made an another sweeping, unsupported statement and I called you on it. You chose to support (or divert attention from) your feeble arguments by attacking my person and misrepresenting my position, just like you did on the other thread. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Mr Ex writes: Actually, now that I think of it, why don't you go back to Pepe the Pink Parrot? I'm sure he'll have all the answers to the questions you ask. well, you certainly don't, so Pepe it is then!
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Message 128 of 171 (253606)
10-21-2005 4:45 AM
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Dodge, duck & dive
LOL!! looking at the exchange above, I couldn't help but laughing out loud. I haven't seen such evasive tactics since Blair was asked about WMD in Iraq. Mr.Ex, you're a master at your trade!. I take my hat off to you!  This message has been edited by Legend, 10-21-2005 05:12 AM
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: 05-07-2004
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Re: Dodge, duck & dive
Mr.Ex, please don't take it personally, it wasn't meant that way. I understand that life gets in the way of internet discussion boards, I've been there myself. I just thought it was funny all the back and forth you did with purpledawn only to end up in the anti-climax of 'it's late and I've got to go'. I should have kept it to myself. Please accept my apologies. P.S Pepe says 'believe or else..'
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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