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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 204 (253643)
10-21-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-21-2005 3:11 AM


Re: On Romans
Not exactly sure what part it is that you want elaborated, but let me try. If this isn't it then just ask and I'll try again.

The Epistles are letters that Paul wrote to various Chruches. They were all existing Christian Churches, everyone of them. To be a Christian you must have already recieved the Gospel, the Good News.

But beyond that most basic requirement, the makeup of Christianity varied, probably even more than the various sects today. One of Paul's primary missions was to take these new Churches and mold them into Christianity as Paul saw it. And, just as in the past as Saul, Hunter of Christians, he persued his new goal with vigor and fanaticism.

If that's not what you were asking let me know.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:11 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 9:02 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 152 of 204 (253660)
10-21-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-21-2005 3:05 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

I think he's suggesting that Christ gave Paul some authority to make universal statements in Christ's name.

The keyword there is "some" authority.

I've been trying to make the point with iano that Jesus' message about loving thy neighbour is universal - and that Paul's message of condemnation under the law was not (necessarily) universal. I am not suggesting that nothing that Paul said was universal - I am referring only to the current topic.

Hence the subtitle: since iano thinks Paul sent a universal message of condemnation to all the early churches, I've been asking him to back that up. (Feel free to chime in. :) )

Let me recap my train of thought here. The OP says:

quote:
It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.

to which I replied in Message 3:

quote:
I would have thought that "Love thy neighbour as thyself" was a pretty straight-forward "thou shalt". Unfortunately, for many professing Christians, it does seem to be a gray area.

Iano is doing an admirable job of confirming that thought, with his searching for complications behind every bush. He replied in Message 6:

quote:
The law is there to condemn you. It's sole purpose is to make you feel condemned.

It is that "sole purpose" which I have been trying to get iano to back up Biblically. So far, all he has come up with is one or two quotes from Paul - hence the meta-debate on whether or not Paul's epistles are universally applicable.

So... what I'm asking is not whether any word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Paul is universally applicable. What I'm asking is for Biblical confirmation of the "sole purpose" idea.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:05 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 2:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 158 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 9:47 AM ringo has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 153 of 204 (253710)
10-21-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
10-21-2005 10:58 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Ahh...I see.

I guess I don't agree that the purpose of the Law was to condemn in the first place.

It seemed to me that the law was intended to show where one was positioned spiritually in relation to God's will for those who gazed upon it deeply -- like a man looking into a mirror and seeing how much conformed to God's image on a spiritual level.

NIV writes:

The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

Or, using another analogy, the law was like a measuring stick whereby one measured their soul in comparison to God's will.

In my opinion when one compares themselves to God they are going to be found to be severely lacking -- but I don't think that this was the sole puropse of the law.

Rather, instead, it seems to me that the law was put forward by the Father so that his Son (in his incarnation) could recognize that he himself was the Messiah who fulfilled the law for all others.

In this sense I think that the law was a tool for salvation by Christ's power -- and not by our own ability to fulfill it.

Again, I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose. Rather, in my opinion anyway, the law was set forth to reveal Christ -- therefore pointing to salvation.

Or, stated simply, those who "keep the law" are essentially manifesting the motion of the Holy Spirit -- Christ moving them via his descent into sheol and rising to new life throughout all human history, effectively filling up the whole universe.

NIV writes:

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

This is why it says:

"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."

(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Anyway, not sure if this helps much. That's how I see it anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 10-21-2005 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 10-21-2005 3:10 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 154 of 204 (253719)
10-21-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-21-2005 2:39 PM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

It seemed to me that the law was intended to show where one was positioned spiritually in relation to God's will....

Good point. I was just taking a more mundane viewpoint - that the law is a guide to our everyday lives.

... I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose.

Agreed. We can not maintain the law 100% because we are not perfect. As you say, the law compares us to God.

That is not a condemnation, as iano claims, but a blessing - in that we can strive to be more like God.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 2:39 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 2:54 AM ringo has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 155 of 204 (253944)
10-22-2005 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
10-21-2005 3:10 PM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
cool.

Here's something else to think about as well. Iano, you might be interested in this too.

Christ Words to those Seeking Salvation by the Scriptures writes:

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Although I certainly think anyone reading the law will tend to have their conscience seared a bit by realizing how much we do wrong, I don't think its necesarilly the main reason for reading it. I guess my point in this is that the law seems to be the device left behind by the Father to point us toward Christ when he came.

The Law seems to be designed to outline the Gospel's forgiveness -- but the Gospel's forgiveness can still very easilly occur without the Law.

Case in point, one of my favorite passages:

Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman writes:


Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."

"Tell me, teacher," he said.

"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."

"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."



This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 10-21-2005 3:10 PM ringo has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 204 (254408)
10-24-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
10-20-2005 3:18 PM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Ringo writes:

No. I said the debate on judging is not one that we want to get into here. Start an appropriate topic.

You had a verb (whosoever...hear) and I had a verb (whosoever judges). You decided debate on judging wasn't a route to be followed yet carried out a one man debate on what constitutes hearing: reading, being told his words by another etc. Stating that the result of your own debate is the conclusion of universality and no debate permissible on judging is somewhat weighting the discusson in your favor.

I reject this approach on the grounds of whats good for the goose is good for the gander. You havn't demonstrated why your approach is valid. You just assume it.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

But now we have some supporting evidence for your view. If Paul makes any "all the world"/"all nations" references then we are back at neck and neck it would appear. And he does. Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God"

To sum up to date:

Jesus , "whosoever hears", specific address in time, "all the world (universality)"
Paul, "whosoever judges", specific address in time, "all the world (universality)"

Or are you suggesting that Jesus' message isn't universal?

I'm not suggesting it's not. I'm suggesting that the reason we can assume (for the sake of discussion) that it is must be provided from the text - not our own baseless opinion about what makes sense to us.

And I hold that Paul is speaking universally too. His statement above applies to every man whereas his "judgeth" statement obviously only refers universally to whoever judges - just likes Jesus "heareth" only applies universally to whoever hears (the gospel being preached to all the world is not the same as everyone hearing. Just reading or hearing words is not the same as hearing what's being said - as our respective posts often demonstrate

On the other hand, you have yet to show us that Paul's message was universal even among his own epistles. Show us what Paul said about condemnation under the law to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....

This is a fallacious argument. As I have pointed out before, there is no need for Paul to write an exact copy of every letter to every church in order to make the message universal. This would require Paul to be solely responsible for spreading the gospel which he patently wasn't. It can be seen from the epistles and Acts that many others were doing the same. Paul expounding on the basis as required. Milk for the church in Rome, meat for the Galatians who were forgetting the message they had already achieved. There is no reason to repeat Romans if the Galatians already had it - which Paul says they had.

And we can use his letters in the same way. Romans for milk, Galations for a little further down the path


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 10-20-2005 3:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 10-24-2005 11:51 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 204 (254413)
10-24-2005 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
10-21-2005 10:14 AM


Re: On Romans
Jar writes:

One of Paul's primary missions was to take these new Churches and mold them into Christianity as Paul saw it

How does one assume to trust (if only for the sake of discussion) that Jesus words are accurate recording/transmitted. The only way for this to have happened in the days when there was no recording equipement was if God ensured it would happen. Especially given that two Gospels are secondhand accounts. And how does one assume the context they were reported under being trustworthy if not to assume the Gospel writers own words are similarily God breathed. If so, on what basis are Pauls and other epistle writers excluded as being God ensured?

It seems that it is either all God-dicated, as it were, or none of it is. How do you manage to insert a division and say some is and some isn't. If none of it is God-ensured, then there is no way to know what the actual gospel is.

And we may as well all go home.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-21-2005 10:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 10-24-2005 10:33 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 158 of 204 (254422)
10-24-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
10-21-2005 10:58 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
ringo writes:

I've been trying to make the point with iano that Jesus' message about loving thy neighbour is universal - and that Paul's message of condemnation under the law was not (necessarily) universal. I am not suggesting that nothing that Paul said was universal - I am referring only to the current topic.

Romans 3:19-20
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law, (in order) that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God

Therefore (as a result of what I have been saying) by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is a knowledge of sin"

The law speaks to every man as every man is born under the law. It tells him:

- because of the law you are made aware of your sin
- you are guilty before God
- following the law won't change your guilt.
- your mouth will be shut. A shut mouth cannot speak a defence.

3:19-20 come at the end of an argument Paul has been making from 1:18. He has been demonstrating that everyone, whether Jew or Gentile is guilty before God. And the law is what is used to achieve this. In speaking to the church in Rome specifically he wraps up by pointing them at a universal truth. When you read it you arrive at the same universal truth. Your guilty too.

There is no good news here. This is not the gospel. It is a precursor for the gospel. First you need to show everyone they are guilty. Then show them the way out. The Gospel starts at the very next verse

Romans 3:21 "But now......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 10-21-2005 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 10-24-2005 12:00 PM iano has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 159 of 204 (254428)
10-24-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
10-24-2005 9:02 AM


On the Gospel.
It's likely that all of the Gospels are both second hand edited and redacted, not just two of them. The same can be said of Paul's Epistles; it probable that not all of them were really written by Paul.

It's important IMHO to differentiate between the GOSPEL, the Good News that all mankind is saved, and the Gospels, the four broadsides that were selected to be included in the Canon.

The only way for this to have happened in the days when there was no recording equipement was if God ensured it would happen.

That's a great question. Let me try to answer it.

IMHO if you take the position that the Bible is God-ensured then you must conclude that GOD is stupid. I don't see how any other possible conclusion can be reached.

Consider Genesis 2:18-20

18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Here is GOD trying to find a help meet for Adam. GOD tries cows and deer and goats and pigs and squirrels and sheep (they were close but still not successful).

Now there are only a few possibilities here.


  • GOD really is so stupid that he doesn't know what critter would make a suitable companion for his own creation.
  • GOD is not that stupid but dictated the story to the scribe as a way of funnin the scribe and readers. If that's the case then GOD does lie and we must consider everything in the Bible as though it were written by Mark Twain.
  • That the the Bible is not God-ensured and is written by men as their best efforts, likely Inspired but still limited by their individual capabilities.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 9:02 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 1:47 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 160 of 204 (254451)
10-24-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
10-24-2005 8:45 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
You quoted:

quote:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Let's look at the very next verse:

quote:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin".

You claimed, in Message 6:

The law is there to condemn you. It's sole purpose is to make you feel condemned.

But Paul himself said that the law is for knowledge of sin - i.e. so we know how to live our lives. Paul himself did not claim that the "sole purpose" of the law was condemnation.

That's all I've been saying. We can take the meta-debate about Paul's universality elsewhere. Universal or not, Paul did not support your point.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 8:45 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 1:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 161 of 204 (254457)
10-24-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by iano
10-24-2005 9:47 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
iano writes:

- following the law won't change your guilt.

So sayeth iano. And yet Jesus said:

quote:
Mat 22:37 ... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Loving thy neighbour is the fulfilment of the law. Nothing you have said changes that.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 9:47 AM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 162 of 204 (254482)
10-24-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
10-24-2005 10:33 AM


Re: On the Gospel.
Jar writes:

It's likely that all of the Gospels are both second hand edited and redacted, not just two of them. The same

You talk with a certain degree of conviction about what the gospel is (not the Gospels or Pauls exposition of the Gospels) but the actual, effectual gospel - the one that results in salvation

If you didn't get your idea from the bible (because it is not reporting in an inerrant sense, none of it can be relied upon) from where did you get your view of which you sound so convinced.

If none of your sources are considered inerrant is it not just the gospel according to man?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 10-24-2005 10:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 10-24-2005 2:00 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 204 (254484)
10-24-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
10-24-2005 11:51 AM


Re: the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Colossians....
Okay back to universality it is. If that is established then the case can be made for the purpose of the law. There is little point in discussing at the moment. Just consider it an interlude in order to get a little of the gospel out. It is "the gospel (afterall) which is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe"

So...Paul pointing the Romans at a universality (which would need as much backing up scripturally as Jesus universal statements)

Jesus and Paul speaking universally. Agreed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 10-24-2005 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 10-24-2005 2:35 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 204 (254487)
10-24-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
10-24-2005 1:47 PM


Re: On the Gospel.
Religion is always "of man". It is not GOD.

If you didn't get your idea from the bible (because it is not reporting in an inerrant sense, none of it can be relied upon) from where did you get your view of which you sound so convinced.

A very good question.

Where did I say that I didn't get my ideas from the Bible? I did, since that's the only place Salvation comes up or is even an issue.

So the question is why I believe that message as opposed to disbelif as in the Genesis tales. The answer to that is to test themessage against reality. I look at the Universe and it does not appear to be the product of either a fool or a liar. The GOD that created this Universe does not seem to be petty.

Those lead me to accept my vision of salvation and to reject those that would require a petty, stupid, meanspirited GOD.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 1:47 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-25-2005 4:58 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 165 of 204 (254491)
10-24-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
10-24-2005 1:55 PM


Purpose of the Law
iano writes:

Okay back to universality it is.

No. Forget about universality. That's just a side issue. It has no impact on my point.

If that is established then the case can be made for the purpose of the law.

One "purpose of the law" in your own quote in Message 158:

quote:
Romans 3:19-20
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law, (in order) that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God
Therefore (as a result of what I have been saying) by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is a knowledge of sin"

is knowledge of sin.

How can guilt/condemnation be the "sole purpose" of the law, as you claimed in Message 6?

Remember the topic in the OP:

quote:
It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.

The "thou shalls" are a gray area to you because you refuse to accept what Jesus said: ALL the law hangeth on loving thy neighbour. NONE of the law hangeth on feeling guilty.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 1:55 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 10-25-2005 7:33 AM ringo has responded

  
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