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Author Topic:   where was the transition within fossil record?? [Stalled: randman]
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 196 of 304 (254177)
10-23-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Buzsaw
10-23-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Majority Accomodates Themselves
There needs to be some term for designating between intra-species adjustments and bonafide transitional evolutionary progress. Why doesn't micro/macro fit this ticket?
Redundancy. We already have terms to describe these phenomena: "adaptation" and "speciation." What do we need the micro/macro construction for, except as a smokescreen for creationists to confuse the issue?
Rather than engage in an enormous effort of word reclaimation to salvage the micro/macro terms, lets employ terms that creationists haven't polluted. My suspicion is that any biologist you hear employing the macro/micro terms is, like most of them, fairly well-insulated from creationist activity. If they knew how these terms were employed against them I suspect they'd drop them immediately.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2005 10:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

halucigenia
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 304 (254179)
10-23-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Buzsaw
10-23-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Majority Accomodates Themselves
Why doesn't micro/macro fit this ticket?
Quite simply because biologically there is no such distinction.
Logically if there was a distinction it could be shown biologically as a different mechanism or something, and biologists would be agreeing with you. It is just unnecessary for TOE.
Let's coin a few more terms, let's say if study micro-evolution I am studying subspecies differences, nano-evolution if I am studying molecular differences between close relatives, kilo-evolution if I am studying differences in genera, Mega.... Giga..... etc. You would not need a different mechanism for each to validate TOE. Get it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2005 10:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6516 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 198 of 304 (254180)
10-23-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Buzsaw
10-23-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Majority Accomodates Themselves
Logically, micro and macro makes sense. There needs to be some term for designating between intra-species adjustments and bonafide transitional evolutionary progress. Why doesn't micro/macro fit this ticket?
Because 'species' is a blurry line in the sand. I charactarize it as a spectrum, it's a smooth gradation form one organism to another. Species is a humanly imposed deffinition which as I sayd can be fuzzy at times.
In other words, there is no 100% absolutely clear line in the sand. And the smae proceses that make your kids look different from you are the same processes that make a dog look different from a cat.
So the terms really don't mean anything. There is just evolution nothing more.
As Ned and mike pointed out, the terms when used by creationists, are essentially straw men. A way of impossing a false delinitaion where there is none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Buzsaw, posted 10-23-2005 10:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by randman, posted 10-23-2005 4:51 PM Yaro has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5215 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 199 of 304 (254191)
10-23-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by halucigenia
10-23-2005 10:29 AM


Re: Well done - clear and concise
halucigenia,
What is the time duration of that population ?
It's already in there, see bolded:
What is the geographical range of a potential transitional population?;
What is the population size of a potential transitional population?;
What percentage of a population, if any, live in habitats that are conducive to fossilisation?;
What is the chance of any given individual fossilising in any given habitat?;
What is the range in time of a potential transitional population?;
Just worded a bit different, that's all.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by halucigenia, posted 10-23-2005 10:29 AM halucigenia has replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5215 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 200 of 304 (254199)
10-23-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Buzsaw
10-23-2005 10:14 AM


Macroevolution exists!
Buzsaw,
I disagree with Yaro, science does recognise the terms micro & macroevolution. I have a book on my shelf called Genetics, Paleontology, & Macroevolution by J.S.Levinton. The difference is that science does not recognise that microevolution is anything but lots of macroevolution, which I venture is where I agree with Yaro.
For the record, Levinton defines macroevolution, "as the sum of those processes that explain the character-state transitions that diagnose evolutionary differences of major taxonomic rank". As such, any species to species transition is purely microevolutionary. Even large mutational events such as polyploidy seeing large size changes (among other things) in a single generation is microevolution by this definition.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2005 1:10 PM mark24 has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6516 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 201 of 304 (254207)
10-23-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by mark24
10-23-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Macroevolution exists!
Point taken mark24, but again, I think creationsists want to co-opt the term to mean something it doesn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by mark24, posted 10-23-2005 12:28 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by mark24, posted 10-23-2005 2:30 PM Yaro has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5215 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 202 of 304 (254220)
10-23-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Yaro
10-23-2005 1:10 PM


Re: Macroevolution exists!
Yaro,
Point taken mark24, but again, I think creationsists want to co-opt the term to mean something it doesn't.
Hey, call me Mark , & yes, they do.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2005 1:10 PM Yaro has not replied

halucigenia
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 304 (254245)
10-23-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mark24
10-23-2005 12:05 PM


oops
Don't know how I missed that, I even quoted it???????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mark24, posted 10-23-2005 12:05 PM mark24 has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 204 of 304 (254248)
10-23-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Yaro
10-23-2005 10:54 AM


Re: Majority Accomodates Themselves
Because 'species' is a blurry line in the sand. I charactarize it as a spectrum, it's a smooth gradation form one organism to another.
What incredible nonsense! I wouldn't have to post anymore for the thinking and objective person after they read that, to illustrate the fantasy mindset of evos.
Sorry buddy, but although the way the term "species" has been twisted may ceate some blurriness, but the simple fact is among sexually reproducing creatures, they can only mate within one group, which was originally called "species."
Whatever the label and whatever propaganda you guys want to spout, there is clearly no spectrum of life, but discrete groups separated one from another. That's why a cat and dog cannot mate for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2005 10:54 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2005 5:08 PM randman has not replied
 Message 209 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2005 5:11 PM randman has replied
 Message 211 by halucigenia, posted 10-23-2005 5:26 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 205 of 304 (254250)
10-23-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by IrishRockhound
10-23-2005 6:36 AM


Re: Whatever happened to manners?
It's hard to maintain manners in such blatant misrepresentation and obfuscation by evos. Sorry if I responded too much in kind, but anyone that has read my posts enough to feel they can post an intelligent reply and make the kind of judgements you made would be aware that I did not claim a 6000 year old earth.
Frankly, this is one of the biggest problems with evos. Educated people that reject ToE understand it often far more than evos themselves, but evos generally have no idea what the basis of their critics are and so continually argue with straw men of their own creation.
At least, that's been my experience overall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-23-2005 6:36 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by nwr, posted 10-23-2005 5:07 PM randman has not replied
 Message 243 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-23-2005 9:52 PM randman has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 206 of 304 (254253)
10-23-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by randman
10-23-2005 4:56 PM


Who understands ToE
randman writes:
Educated people that reject ToE understand it often far more than evos themselves,
From that, with a simple application of logic, I can only conclude that
either randman does not reject ToE, or
randman is not educated.
For it is quite obvious that randman has an extremely poor understanding of ToE.
(edit: to change subtitle)
This message has been edited by nwr, 10-23-2005 04:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6516 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 207 of 304 (254254)
10-23-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by randman
10-23-2005 4:51 PM


Re: Majority Accomodates Themselves
Whatever the label and whatever propaganda you guys want to spout, there is clearly no spectrum of life, but discrete groups separated one from another. That's why a cat and dog cannot mate for example.
Well you see there randman, that's where you are wrong. Cat's and dogs differ up at the genus level. Tiger and Lion would be a better example and we all know they can mate.
In any case, species is a blurry line. From the wiki:
Definitions of species
The definition of a species given above as taken from Mayr, is somewhat idealistic. Since it assumes sexual reproduction, it leaves the term undefined for a large class of organisms that reproduce asexually. Biologists frequently do not know whether two morphologically similar groups of organisms are "potentially" capable of interbreeding. Further, there is considerable variation in the degree to which hybridization may succeed under natural and experimental conditions, or even in the degree to which some organisms use sexual reproduction between individuals to breed. Consequently, several lines of thought in the definition of species exist:
* A typological species is a group of organisms in which individuals are members of the species if they sufficiently conform to certain fixed properties. The clusters of variations or phenotypes within specimens (ie: longer and shorter tails) would differentiate the species. This method was used as a "classical" method of determining species, such as with Linnaeus early in evolutionary theory. However, we now know that different phenotypes do not always constitute different species (ie: a 4-winged Drosphila born to a 2-winged mother is not a different species). Species named in this manner are called a morphospecies.
* A morphological species is a group of organisms that have a distinctive form: for example, we can distinguish between a chicken and a duck because they have different shaped bills and the duck has webbed feet. Species have been defined in this way since well before the beginning of recorded history. Although much criticised, the concept of morphological species remains the single most widely used species concept in everyday life, and still retains an important place within the biological sciences, particularly in the case of plants.
* The biological species or isolation species concept identifies a species as a set of actually or potentially interbreeding organisms. This is generally the most useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. It does not distinguish between the theoretical possibility of interbreeding and the actual likelihood of gene flow between populations and is thus impractical in many instances of allopatric (geographically isolated) populations. For example, it is possible to cross a horse with a donkey and produce offspring, however they remain separate species”in this case for two different reasons: first because horses and donkeys do not normally interbreed in the wild, and second because the fruit of the union is rarely fertile. The key to defining a biological species is that there is no significant cross-flow of genetic material between the two populations.
* A mate-recognition species is defined as a group of organisms that are known to recognise one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually.
* A phylogenetic or evolutionary or Darwinian species is a group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, members may diverge from one another: when such a divergence becomes sufficiently clear, the two populations are regarded as separate species.
* See also microspecies under apomixis, for species that reproduce without meiosis or mitosis so that each generation is genetically identical to the previous generation.
In practice, these definitions often coincide, and the differences between them are more a matter of emphasis than of outright contradiction. Nevertheless, no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgement. Given the complexity of life, some have argued that such an objective definition is in all likelihood impossible, and biologists should settle for the most practical definition.
Species is hardly a line cut in stone, and many times species classifications have been changed, or merged. I belive it is disputed weather or not bonobos are the same species as chimpanzee for example.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 10-23-2005 05:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 304 (254255)
10-23-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by nwr
10-23-2005 5:07 PM


Re: Who understands ToE
I vote for the first one. randman is clealy a parody, trying to make creationists look ridiculous.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 209 of 304 (254256)
10-23-2005 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by randman
10-23-2005 4:51 PM


Randman and denial.
but the simple fact is among sexually reproducing creatures, they can only mate within one group,
Do you deny that each individual within the group is different from each other individual within the group? (Even "Identical Twins" have slight differences that allow their close friends and family to tell them apart.)
Do you deny that speciation has occured, where one group has split into two groups that no longer interchange genetic material?
Do you deny that the ring species the greenish warble interbreeds around the ring but not between the varieties at the northern overlap?
Whatever the label and whatever propaganda you guys want to spout, there is clearly no spectrum of life,
Do you deny that the ring species above is physical evidence of a very clear spectrum of life that diverges until two components no longer interbreed?
Call it what you like: it is your denial that is the real question, not the evidence.
Enjoy.
{changed subtitle to focus on the question}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*23*2005 05:13 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by randman, posted 10-23-2005 4:51 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by randman, posted 10-23-2005 5:28 PM RAZD has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 210 of 304 (254258)
10-23-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by mark24
10-23-2005 9:16 AM


Re: Roll Up! Roll Up! More Creationist Evasion Here!
Mark, reasonable estimates of the number of forms, families of species, it would take to evolve a land mammal to modern whales is in the thousands. No reasonable thinking person would deny that.
Comparitive analysis among today's mammals are one measure on how you can easily see this.
For example, we know there are wide areas of differences between land mammals and whales. That area of difference is a range.
You can then look at existing mammals, such as whales themselves, and compare the differences (the range) with numbers of species and families of species. With whales, there are something like 80 species.
The fact is you are just trying to claim it is too difficult when it is not. It's pretty easy to see that a bigger range of differences encompasses a bigger range of species, right?
Now, here is where you guys seem to not even understand evolutionary theory. According to evo theory, evolution proceeds in a bush-like manner. Remember how you guys claim that species that we know did not lead to direct evolution of today's species are nonetheless considered transitional by evos.
Why?
Because the form is considered transitional even if it did not evolve further at all because the theorized bush-like nature of evolution suggests that a variation of the form was evolving in a separate line of evolution. In other words, if we a form, we can generally infer there are cousins, aunts, uncles, etc,...proceeding.
Why is this relevant?
Because it shows the bigger the range of differences and time-scale in evolution, there is an exponential growth of species that must have existed.
Let's look at another large mammal, modern horses. Evos currently identified via fossils, 28 horse-like creatures that existed prior to horses today. Not all are considered in direct line of horses, and all of these creatures might even be considered "horses" or part of a horse-kind for creationists. The point is the range is small.
So going back a little with whales to the previous whale ancestors that must have existed, comparing mammals with mammals, it is not unreasonable to think there would be a 28 to 1 ratio of modern whales to the forms just before it. One should expect then there to be 2240 transitional species. Now, they would all be very whale-like, just as the prior horse forms were very horse-like.
But going back within the range scale all the way to land mammals, there would be millions probably of transitional species.
If you don't want to use horses, pick other large mammals and do comparisons for a range. Irregardless, to produce that level of morphological change, you are looking at probably millions of species.
But let's cut this down to families of species, and assume best-case scenarios, etc,....you are still looking at thousands if not tens of thousands of transitional forms.
Where are they in the fossil record?
You guys present a handful you claim are good candidates. Let's say the handful are good candidates for sake of argument.
Where are the other 99.999%
Maybe they don't exist because they never existed?
You claim fossil rarity as the excuse, but if fossilization was that rare, it would not be reasonable to expect to find multiple fossils of any one species, especially in different locations. Keep in mind that even the immediate ancestors and predecessors are completely unseen, no data in the fossil record for them at all.
All of the elaborate thinking, imagination and twisted logic just cannot get around the fact that if evolution occurred as you guys claim, we would see an abundance of fossils for the process, and we don't. We see a statistically neglible amount of fossils that could possibly, with a lot of imagination and faith in ToE, be considered transitional.
I prefer to go with the evidence, and the evidence to date suggest ToE models are wrong. The notion that the fossil record is not needed to support evolution, as if we would not see the process more documented, is totally unsubstantiated by evos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by mark24, posted 10-23-2005 9:16 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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