Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts

That's easy enough. It will of course depend on the specifics.For example, the Creation Myths are both mutually exclusive and do not correspond to reality. The Earth is more than 6000 years old.GOD, if GOD exists is neither stupid nor vainglorious.The Bible is but a human construct. It is neither GOD nor even a record written by GOD. The Universe is far more directly the hand of GOD and a record than any anthology could ever be.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's a map, a guide.But GOD never expected us to check our brains at the door.When the map says the bridge is fine but we can see it's been washed away, it is foolish to simply drive across.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What makes you think he's a map reader? It sounds far more like he is the typical Literalist and Fundamentalist.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There's a reason for the different divisions in the Bible. The Gospels are broadcasts, general broadsides to be delivered to all.The Epistles on the other hand are letters addressed to specific targets dealing with specific issues. While they can certainly be of general use and instruction, that was never their intent. We can learn from them just as we can from reading the personal correspondencce of others, be it Lincoln, King George or Mark Twain.Acts was meant to be a short synopsis of the early preachers as they went about building the franchise. It's a somewhat colored, nearly contemporary account, but was written too close to events to have the objectivity only time can bring. It would be similar to an account of the US Civil War written around the turn of the Century or a history of the Henry VIII's reign written while Mary Tudor was on the throne.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Except, of course, the Romans had heard the Gospel. Paul acknowledges that fact early in Romans. The Christians in Rome had the Scriptures and Gospel, what they didn't have was Paul's personal version of what the Franchise should be. Romans is Paul trying to impose his version of Christianity on the Christians in Rome. edited to fix the subtitle before the moose bitesThis message has been edited by jar, 10-19-2005 12:47 PM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

iano, you really can't be as dense as your posts make you appear, so I'll try once again. I know that because I didn't check my brains at the door and actually have read the damn Manual. Not just Romans 1-8, but the whole damn Manual.I say that Paul is writing to an established Christian Church in Rome because he's written a damn letter to SOME ORGANIZED BODY, they are called the SAINTs, and because he goes on to describe that FAITH mentioned earlier as being shared by Paul and the Church in Rome. iano, I have got to ask you before we draw this out much further,have you ever even read the Bible?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Thank you. QEDWhen Paul speaks to those known as Saints in Rome he's speaking to the Church in Rome. To Christians. If they are Christians they've heard the Gospel.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You're a nubee. I suspected as much and in the future, I'll try to keep that in mind.I welcome you on the journey and hope to be along as you begin learning more and more about this marvelous religion.I'm what can best be described as a Creedal Christian. Try, is inherent in every single part of the Biblical message. I've pointed this out to you many times but I'll try once more.Do you think GOD is stupid?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

They are Christians?You cannot be a Christian if you have not heard the Gospel, the Good News. That is the most basic definition of a Christian.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Creedal Christians outline their beliefs in what are know as the Creeds, the best known being the Nicene Creed. If that is really true, which I most fervently doubt, then you would agree that GOD is truly stupid, far more stupid than anyone could imagine.If you really are a sola scripturalist Christian you can hold know other honest opinion. See Genesis 2:18-20.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Not exactly sure what part it is that you want elaborated, but let me try. If this isn't it then just ask and I'll try again.The Epistles are letters that Paul wrote to various Chruches. They were all existing Christian Churches, everyone of them. To be a Christian you must have already recieved the Gospel, the Good News.But beyond that most basic requirement, the makeup of Christianity varied, probably even more than the various sects today. One of Paul's primary missions was to take these new Churches and mold them into Christianity as Paul saw it. And, just as in the past as Saul, Hunter of Christians, he persued his new goal with vigor and fanaticism.If that's not what you were asking let me know.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's likely that all of the Gospels are both second hand edited and redacted, not just two of them. The same can be said of Paul's Epistles; it probable that not all of them were really written by Paul.It's important IMHO to differentiate between the GOSPEL, the Good News that all mankind is saved, and the Gospels, the four broadsides that were selected to be included in the Canon. That's a great question. Let me try to answer it.IMHO if you take the position that the Bible is God-ensured then you must conclude that GOD is stupid. I don't see how any other possible conclusion can be reached.Consider Genesis 2:18-20 Here is GOD trying to find a help meet for Adam. GOD tries cows and deer and goats and pigs and squirrels and sheep (they were close but still not successful).Now there are only a few possibilities here.

• GOD really is so stupid that he doesn't know what critter would make a suitable companion for his own creation.
• GOD is not that stupid but dictated the story to the scribe as a way of funnin the scribe and readers. If that's the case then GOD does lie and we must consider everything in the Bible as though it were written by Mark Twain.
• That the the Bible is not God-ensured and is written by men as their best efforts, likely Inspired but still limited by their individual capabilities.
  

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Religion is always "of man". It is not GOD. A very good question.Where did I say that I didn't get my ideas from the Bible? I did, since that's the only place Salvation comes up or is even an issue.So the question is why I believe that message as opposed to disbelif as in the Genesis tales. The answer to that is to test themessage against reality. I look at the Universe and it does not appear to be the product of either a fool or a liar. The GOD that created this Universe does not seem to be petty.Those lead me to accept my vision of salvation and to reject those that would require a petty, stupid, meanspirited GOD.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Another good question.First a quick summary just to make sure that we are communicating and not just typing stuff. It looks like we agree that religion is just a product of man and that you can read the Bible and also look at the Universe around you and from that determine that GOD is reasonable, logical, rational. I would also add that the evidence of the world around us implies that GOD is also consistant and honest.Salvation, like the existence or non-existence of GOD, is something that cannot be determined or verified. It is one of those items which must be taken on faith. If GOD exists, She exists, regardless of whether or not one believes in it. Likewise, there either is Salvation or there isn't salvation, our beliefs on that do not effect the reality of the situation.So what we are discussing is not the existence of either GOD or Salvation but only what we believe about them, and not even their existence but only the terms and conditions for salvation should it exist.Now to your question relating to how I arrive at my beliefs regarding those terms and conditions.I believe that man is charged with a knowledge of right and wrong. That belief is based on the Bible and the Genesis Eden Tale. It doesn't matter whether the tale itself is a true depiction of historical events (I am absolutely sure that it is not) or whether it is a folktale, a morality play. The message is that we know right from wrong. In addition, the moral, which is that you are expected to do right and that doing wrong gets you sanctioned, is repeated time and again throughout the books of the Bible.Second, again and again throughout the Bible, there is another story. Even though man is not capable of always choosing right over wrong, GOD forgives man. Whether or not the stories are true, the message remains the same. GOD forgives man.So we can add another characteristic to the list, GOD is mercyful.One that has not been mentioned is that GOD is not stupid. I look at the Universe around me and the wonder of it all, and I cannot comprend the conception that all this awsome universe was created by someone that was dumber than a red brick. That may be a personal failing, but I just can't imagine a stupid GOD.I look at the two different versions of salvation criteria. In one, there are conditions. You must believe in the GOD. You must worship him. Or, as an alternative you must behave perfectly, be Christ and not Christ-like.The question is WHY? What kind of a GOD would require someone to worship Her as a precondition? The only answer I can imagine is that that God is vainglorious, insecure. Or if option two is attempted, to fail. A God that would set a bar so high that its own creation cannot possible succeed is both stupid and vainglorious.Speaking only for myself, as always, that seems very improbable.The other option is the one I suspect is true. That is that GOD forgives all mankind. Done deal. Forgiven. Complete. Without condition.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, looking at it from your perspective. The only possible conclusion is that God is a fool. No I don't think I have need of forgiveness because such a God is impossible. I realize that what is being taught as Christianity is buta sham and farce and turn to Atheism.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion