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Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 150 (184581)
02-11-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Droxyn
02-11-2005 10:06 AM


Let me also welcome you to EvC.
One thing to use to see how anyone does something is the "peek" button. If you click on that it will show you what tools a person used for a task.

In addition, when posting a reply there are two buttons on the left, one for dBCodes, another for html. They will provide you with tips and tricks to get the formatting you desire.

At the bottom of this message are some links to other information that may help you. Start Here will take to to the Post of the Month forum. This is a history of many of the truly great posts we've had over the years. Spend some time looking at them and perhaps they will help you.

Other links will take you to formatting tips and our guideline.

Again. welcome and we hope to learn much from you in the future.


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This message is a reply to:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 2383 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 137 of 150 (190041)
03-04-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ramoss
02-11-2005 9:00 AM


Re: Not a Sacrifice for Sins of Mankind
Except that you are missing the passages where alternatives to sacrifice are given. While dedicating the Temple, King Solomon also indicated that prayer can be used to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50).

Odd then, no? If prayer is sufficient for forgiveness, then what mandates God to die for sins?


"God and I don't speak much. He never admits to his mistakes and still acts as if his every opinion should be carved in stone. Trae
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 138 of 150 (190043)
03-04-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Trae
03-04-2005 11:55 AM


$64,000 Question
quote:
If prayer is sufficient for forgiveness, then what mandates God to die for sins?
That, my friend, is the $64,000 question, which has yet to be answered convincingly in this thread.

This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-04-2005 12:10 AM


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 139 of 150 (190184)
03-05-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Droxyn
02-10-2005 11:41 PM


Re: Not a Sacrifice for Sins of Mankind
abraham also made a sacrifice... almost a human one. but then genesis was written after the temple period.
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 140 of 150 (190190)
03-05-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by purpledawn
03-04-2005 12:09 PM


Re: $64,000 Question
arach and i had a discussion a couple years back for about a year or so thatthe death (and resurection... can't forget that lol) was not to satisfy god's bloodlust, but to satisfy man's.

more specifically. god could easily forgive without any loss of any sort. all he needs is repentance. however. men are not so fogiving and seem to think that someone has to die to fix problems. see hitler, see american foreign policy post 2001, see the evolved form of nearly every religion ever, see human vengence.

the summation of our discussion was that (assuming the death of jesus in the first place which.. well...) it was for god to demonstrate to men that he would do anything to draw them to him. once mankind's gladiator need was filled and they'd seen blood, they were satisfied and could then accept him.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 141 of 150 (190261)
03-05-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by macaroniandcheese
03-05-2005 12:41 PM


Re: $64,000 Question
quote:
men are not so fogiving and seem to think that someone has to die to fix problems
Which is the perfect plot for the story. Jews were already conditioned to sacrifice animals for their sin. A man (especially the messiah) would obviously be more important than an animal and thus the ultimate final sacrifice, now they wouldn't have to sacrifice anymore. IMO, it would not be hard to sell this reasoning to people who were tired of the expensive sacrifical system.

From reading the OT though and understanding when the books were believed to be written, I find that the sacrifice for sin atonement was a second temple ritual.

There were the sacrifices and offerings for thanks, but not for sin atonement. So the tradition was started by man and ended by man.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2005 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 142 of 150 (190275)
03-05-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by purpledawn
03-05-2005 9:07 PM


Re: $64,000 Question
precisely.
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 143 of 150 (190283)
03-06-2005 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by purpledawn
10-17-2004 9:13 PM


Purpledawn,

Just to throw in some historical info for you:

I spent about five years reading repeatedly through the writings of the 2nd century church, from the close of the NT period to the early 3rd century. One of the more interesting, and difficult, things to read about was their view on the atonement. I was never able to wrap their views together into a simple theology.

However, a few things were clear.

1. They often quote that verse in Jer 7 that you quoted earlier, saying that God never told the fathers in the wilderness to sacrifice to him. Across the board, the early church argued that the sacrifices were for the Jews, to give them something to see, not for God.

2. Their favorite argument for that perspective seemed to be Psalm 51, where David says that God did not desire sacrifices or burnt offerings, but instead wanted a broken and contrite spirit.

3. Since Psalm 51 ends with David sacrificing after he was forgiven (not before), they argued that a sacrifice did not purify the offerer, but the offerer's heart purified the sacrifice.

4. An example of this can be seen in Cain and Abel. Almost universally, Christians today say that God rejected Cain's bloodless sacrifice of grain, while accepting Abel's sacrifice of a lamb, because it included blood. That viewpoint was unknown to the early church. They believed that Abel's pure heart made his sacrifice acceptable, while Cain's evil heart made his unacceptable. They explained that this is simply what is written, because God said to Cain, "If you do good, will you not be accepted?" To them, this was God telling Cain how to have his sacrifice accepted; by doing good, not by adding blood.

I tell you all this just to let you know that at one time your view was simply the mainline view. The "God requires a death" doctrine is really only a Western view, even in modern times. I am not positive, but I believe that most Orthodox (Eastern, Russian, Greek, Coptic) believers would call the atonement/sacrifice view of the Catholics and Protestants a very Roman legalistic sort of view, unknown to the eastern world, which was never under the rule of Roman law. I've read several historians that attribute the "God requires a death" doctrine to St. Anselm and date it to around the 11th century, which would be why the Orthodox never adopted it. It was taught after the "Great Split."

Just a bit of info for you.


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 144 of 150 (190312)
03-06-2005 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by truthlover
03-06-2005 12:17 AM


Mainline
quote:
I tell you all this just to let you know that at one time your view was simply the mainline view.
That's me, always late! :)

I love history. So many pieces to the puzzle.

I skimmed some of the writings considered to be truly Pauline and noticed that his use of sacrifice was more descriptive as opposed to atonement.

Thank you very much for the history info.
Now I have a few more tidbits to tuck away in my brain.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 145 of 150 (253586)
10-21-2005 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 10:27 PM


I think these observations reflect both the Isaelites and Christ himself at the same time. I also think it's seriously obstructing a greater message when people become divided over which side is represented more correctly -- Christ or the Israelites.

Why can't they both be true?


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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 146 of 150 (253589)
10-21-2005 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
08-26-2004 11:30 AM


Re: Obedience is better than Sacrifice
I just wanted to say rhat I'm pretty sorry to hear that. Your father shouldn't have been left alone by the ones he had helped so much over the years. :(

I guess that's all I wanted to say.


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Epiphany7
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 150 (253697)
10-21-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by purpledawn
08-21-2004 5:45 AM


Could it be that these sacrifices were also to put meat on the table? In those days there were not supermarkets to buy meat. They would have killed animals whether there was some ritualistic meaning behind it or not so they could eat. It is meaningless to atone for sins in such a way, especially if the sin is murder, because it doesn't make the victim any less dead. Anyone with common sense can see that.

As far as Jesus' purpose, I think it was similar to Buddha's and many others . . . to teach the rest of the world how to conduct ourselves and treat others. People didn't learn, because emphasis was placed on his death instead of his life. This enabled people to continue with their wicked ways, because their sins are paid for anyways. They will not be held accountable. That's why I lean toward karma, because the Bible says God is just. A just God would make the guilty party pay, not some innocent person.

Jesus died because usually people that try to do what is right are killed by evil people, i.e., Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., Abe Lincoln. Many people do not want peace, and they eliminate those that try to bring it to keep the world in the state it is in.


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Epiphany7
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 150 (253699)
10-21-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
08-21-2004 8:41 PM


"Sacrifice, meaning the older traditional religous sacrifice, killing something, burning something, or contributing something, hasn't been needed since Jesus died. Sacrifice, as I mentioned, where someone love others as himself, will hopefully always be with us."

Does this mean that the Jewish people still practice these sacrifices? Does anyone know?


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 149 of 150 (253864)
10-21-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Epiphany7
10-21-2005 1:07 PM


quote:
Could it be that these sacrifices were also to put meat on the table?
When I was researching for this thread, I did find information that it was a localized way of butchering. There was information that sacrifice for atonement was not the original purpose.

Supposedly Judaism does not practice the sacrifices today because the Temple was destroyed. It was the only place allowed for sacrifices. Once it was gone the sacrifices stopped, from what I have read.

Ramoss gives a good run down on Early Jewish Sacrifices for Atonement in the Atonement thread.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Epiphany7, posted 10-21-2005 1:07 PM Epiphany7 has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 150 of 150 (254845)
10-26-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
08-23-2004 6:49 PM


Re: The Sacrificial Lamb? Who be talking to whom?
That was an excellent post there. I especially enjoyed this part here:

Phat writes:


Adam: "I had no Bible at all, but I walked with God in the cool of the garden."

Abraham:"I had no Bible at all, but at different times God would appear to me and speak to me."

Moses: "My Bible contained 5 books?Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy"

King David:"My Bible contained the same 5 books that Moses had as well as Joshua and Judges and many of the Psalms which I wrote, etc."

Ezra: "My Bible contained most of the Old Testament books but not all of them"(Of course, Ezra would not know that more books were to come!)

John the Baptist: "My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books but none of the New Testament books" (John was Jewish, and the entire O.T. was written to him! He was also a prophet.

Apostle Paul: "My Bible contained the Old Testament books and most of the New Testament books but not all of them" (He wrote the N.T. part)

John, the Disciple whom Jesus loved:"My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books and all of the New Testament books. Shortly before I died God used me to write the last New Testament book."

Different rules for different people at different points in time! Does this make sense? Consider the rules for three kids born to the same Dad with different ages. Some could stay out late, others could not. Some could drive, others could not.

Now look at three Biblical figures:

Noah (after the flood)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said.
He had the privilege of walking with God (Gen. 6:9).
He had the responsibility of obeying God (compare Heb. 11:7).
The murderer should be put to death (Genesis 9:6).
Animals should be sacrificed to God (Genesis 8:20).
God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or to circumcise male children or to baptize believers in water.
---------------------------------------------

David (under the law of Moses)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah did).
He had the privilege of walking with God.
He had the responsibility of obeying God (Deut. 8:1).
The murderer should be put to death (Exodus 21:12).
Animals should be sacrificed to God (Leviticus 1-5).
God told him to keep the Sabbath and to circumcise male children (Deut. 5:12-14 and Leviticus 12:3).
God did not tell him to baptize believers in water.
-------------------------------------------------------

Paul (a New Testament believer under grace)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah or David).
He had the privilege of walking with God.
He had the responsibility of obeying God (1 John 2:3-5).
The murderer should be put to death (Romans 13:1-4).
Animal sacrifices are no longer necessary (Hebrews 10).
God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or circumcise male children.
God did tell him to baptize believers in water (Matthew 28:19-20).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Different rules at different points in time.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-26-2005 03:44 AM


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