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Author Topic:   IC challenge: Evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle!
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 68 of 157 (194981)
03-28-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by nator
03-28-2005 8:49 AM


Deserved ad hominem
OK. It's official now. Does anybody remember what I said to Buzsaw some time ago?
Parasomnium writes:
[...] you creationists always hammer on the word 'random' only. It's time for you to try and refute the argument of random mutation AND selection. If, after you have read this, you still refuse to think about selection, I will take that as dishonesty.
And right here in this thread we see how Schrafinator catches Buzsaw doing it again. I may be risking suspension or even banning for what I am about to do, but I don't care. I think now would be a good time to take that megaphone I have on loan from Dan Carrol, and put it good use. So here goes:
{turns megaphone to max. volume}
BUZSAW IS DISHONEST. HE KNOWS ABOUT SELECTION. YET HE ALWAYS MENTIONS RANDOMNESS ONLY. SINCE HE HAS BEEN TOLD A MILLION TIMES THAT THE MECHANISM OF EVOLUTION CONSISTS OF RANDOM MUTATIONS AND SELECTION, THE FACT THAT HE MISREPRESENTS THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION CAN ONLY MEAN THAT HE IS DISHONEST. BUZSAW IS DISHONEST. PASS IT ON: BUZSAW IS DISHONEST.
{switches off megaphone and prepares for suspension}
{edited to correct spelling}
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 29-Mar-2005 09:13 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 03-28-2005 8:49 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by kjsimons, posted 03-28-2005 1:26 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 70 of 157 (195126)
03-29-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by kjsimons
03-28-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Deserved ad hominem
Thanks for the support, KJ.
I wonder what's keeping the admins from at least commenting on the issue? I don't mind being admonished for my transgression, or even suspended. I deserve that. But why is Buzsaw getting away, time and again, with his dishonest way of debating? By his own admission, he is aware of selection being a part of evolution:
Buzsaw writes:
Fyi, I've long been aware about NS.
Here's an excerpt from the forum rules:
quote:
2 Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without further elaboration. {Italics mine, P.}
3 Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."
.
.
.
7 Avoid any form of misrepresentation.
Accepting the consequences of breaking rule 3, I accuse Buzsaw of repeatedly breaking rules 2 and 7.
In the interest of the debate in general, I would welcome any admin's comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by kjsimons, posted 03-28-2005 1:26 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by AdminSchraf, posted 03-29-2005 7:52 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 72 of 157 (195132)
03-29-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
03-27-2005 8:03 PM


Intelligent? Not really.
Buzsaw comments on RAZD's example of evolution of a motorbike:
quote:
You need be highly commended, Razd, for the wonderfully intelligent designing of your bicycle.
There's nothing intelligent about RAZD's design, Buz. (No offence, RAZD, I'm talking about your design, not you. But you understand that, no doubt.)
Let's pick it apart, shall we?
RAZD writes:
adding a battery powered light to the bicycle
An intelligent designer would have thought of that right away.
RAZD writes:
Adding a generator to the system is a further improvement
An intelligently designed system doesn't need improvements, especially if the designer is deemed perfect.
RAZD writes:
Increasing the size of the {generator\motor} and the capacity of the storage battery
As if not including a generator in the first place isn't already a design failure, now it needs to be increased? Shouldn't the intelligent designer have thought of that before?
RAZD writes:
add a small motor to the generator to assist the generation of electricity, allowing the battery to be smaller
OK, so first you need a big battery and now a smaller one will suffice? So there was a waste of resources in the past? How intelligent is that?
RAZD writes:
link the motor directly to the drive mechanism to get around energy lost in the various intermediate stages
Wait a minute. This system is intelligently designed, yet energy gets wasted?
RAZD writes:
allow the {generator\battery} system to atrophy and fall off
That's the bloody limit! We don't need the generator/battery system after all? Whose money does this intelligent designer think he's spending?
In conclusion: if your Intelligent Designer is in any way like the one who developed RAZD's motorcycle, Buz, then he's fired.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2005 8:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 03-29-2005 7:39 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 03-29-2005 10:32 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 75 of 157 (195142)
03-29-2005 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
03-29-2005 7:39 AM


Re: Intelligent? Not really.
RAZD writes:
the other thing I forgot to mention [...]
{moan} How the hell are we going to explain this to the board of directors? I guess the ones who hired the intelligent designer will have to be sacked too. Where will it all end?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 03-29-2005 7:39 AM RAZD has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 85 of 157 (195233)
03-29-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Admin
03-29-2005 9:36 AM


Thanks for your comments, Percy.
Admin writes:
[...] those who repeatedly undertake the same task with little success, those who keep following the same script and for some reason expect something different to happen someday, need their sanity checked.
Point taken.
Admin writes:
[...] I don't think suspensions or even admonitions are called for yet in this discussion.
At least it got Buzsaw to investigate what he calls RM/NS, and I'd say that counts for something. In the meantime, I am returning the megaphone to Dan. He's much funnier with it than I could ever hope to be.
Admin writes:
Sorry I can't be more helpful. Perhaps another moderator will have some better insights.
Better than this?
quote:
If you dislike debating someone who seems to begin every discussion from a state of near total amnesia and needs everything explained from scratch again and again, then don't debate with him/her.
Unlikely.
"Near total amnesia", now that was really funny!

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Admin, posted 03-29-2005 9:36 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-29-2005 3:49 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 87 of 157 (195238)
03-29-2005 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dan Carroll
03-29-2005 3:49 PM


Re: Thanks for your comments, Percy.
Did I say "much funnier with it"? Scratch that. He's much, much funnier even without it!
(Dan? Never, ever stop, OK?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-29-2005 3:49 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-29-2005 4:46 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 135 of 157 (254995)
10-27-2005 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Soplar
10-26-2005 11:55 PM


Re: Distiguishing between Designer and Design Process
Excellent post. It ties in with an idea I proposed in this thread.
I have one comment though.
Soplar writes:
The fact that over 95% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct is proof of the effectiveness of the T&E design process.
It depends on what you think this effectiveness is about.
A lot of those extinct species were very successful designs in their day. They've been tried and not been found "errors" for long periods of time. Only when circumstances changed, did they become unfit and were discarded.
Since circumstances will always keep changing, the fraction of extinct species will keep rising. If you wait long enough, practically all species that have ever existed will have become extinct. On the face of it, it would then seem as though this process of trial and error is incapable of producing anything worthwhile.
So, if you mean effectiveness in terms of weeding out errors, then the 95% indeed proves effectiveness, but it's a moot point in view of the future trend of this number.
But of you mean effectiveness in terms of innovation, then your 95% sort of proves the opposite.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 27-Oct-2005 10:35 AM

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Soplar, posted 10-26-2005 11:55 PM Soplar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Soplar, posted 10-27-2005 4:17 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
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