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Member (Idle past 2520 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Others who are reading this don't care whether I accept your findings or not.
If you can show that Paul thought that condemnation was the only purpose of the law, then show it. If you can show that Jesus thought that condemnation was the only purpose of the law, then show it. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I seriously doubt that the world is watching us Ringo. But if others have been following this, then they may hold the view that it matters quite a lot whether or not grounds for discussion with the person with whom I am discussing, are established. Lack of establishment means a potential return to counters from you such as: "those writing are corrupted", "that is Pauline doctrine only", "we know that Johns gospel doesn't match up with the others" and other such Herrings Rouge.
Clarification required on this matter (for the purposes of discussion only of course )
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
delete content: double post
This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 10:00 AM
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Lack of establishment means a potential return to counters from you such as: "those writing are corrupted", "that is Pauline doctrine only", "we know that Johns gospel doesn't match up with the others" and other such Herrings Rouge Put up your evidence. Then our readers can evaluate it for themselves. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
'tis with you I am discussing Ringo. I have no obligation to anyone else. And it's with you, that the unestablished terms for discussion apply I'm afraid.
Going, going...
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
You can run but you can't hide.
You should have more respect for your fellow members. If you don't have the backup for your assertions, admit it to them. Don't try to loophole your way out of it by misrepresenting the "terms of discussion". I think I have made my position fairly clear and backed it up with scripture: The law is for our benefit, not God's. We are to receive blessing and knowledge from it, not just condemnation. If anybody has any points they want me to clarify, they're welcome to ask. Now, why don't you do us all the courtesy of answering the questions you've been asked without trying to weasel out on every technicality? People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
Galations 3:19 NIV writes:
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. Here's another passage...
Romans 2:11-13 NIV writes: For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. There's this...
Romans 5:12-14 NIV writes: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned ”- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Here's another...
Galatians 3:23-25 writes: Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. And finally this...
Ephesians 2:11-16 NIV writes:
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)” remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Again, I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose. Rather, in my opinion anyway, the law was set forth to reveal Christ -- therefore pointing to salvation.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
iano writes: Going, going... ....gone.
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iano Member (Idle past 1968 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
mrx writes: Again, I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose. Rather, in my opinion anyway, the law was set forth to reveal Christ -- therefore pointing to salvation. I agree except for ultimate purpose. Given this progress, lets see how far we agree here. The law was set forth to point the way to salvation (or "the law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ" as Galatians 3:24 puts the actual purpose a few verses on from your Galations quote). Schoolteacher? Discipline, education, authority, guidance. This is the law and it has a purpose like you say - to lead us to the way of salvation. The law itself doesn't save, it just points the way to the way of salvation. Salvation: saved from something. In order to be saved from something, someone has to be in danger of something else. The law, being a school teacher, an educator, is going to lead a person to the means of salvation by education/discipline/authority. It is going to teach and expose person to the the very great danger they are in. And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned. Condemnation is guaranteed for everyone who is under the reign and influence of the law. But there is nothing wrong with the law. The law is good. And the law itself cannot be set aside or ignored. That wouldn't be just. In order to be saved from being condemned by it something dramatic has got to happen. The person must be removed to a position safe from the law. Somewhere where the law cannot touch them. Out from under law and into Christ The ultimate purpose of the law?The only way the law can point the way to Christ is to condemn you. It can do no other thing. And if a person is shown that this is their state then they can only do one thing. Cry out for mercy. What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much. For the life of me I can't think of one
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much. A "more noble, worthwhile and important purpose" would be to improve our lives, to show us how to treat each other. Hence Jesus' summation of the law: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Hence "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me." It makes no sense to say that the law condemns us and then say that the law is a mechanism for salvation. The law saves us from itself? There again you are postulating a sadistic god, who throws us in the river just so he can pull us out and be a big hero. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
It makes no sense to say that the law condemns us and then say that the law is a mechanism for salvation. While I would hate to be found agreeing with Jano on anything having to do with salvation, I don't think is a fair representation of what (s)he said. Jano's position is that the law's purpose is indeed to show us how to treat each other, but the result is that it shows us that we don't treat each other that way, thus condemning us. The resulting condemnation drives us to Christ. Actually, I guess I do agree with him, sort of. Paul's letter to the Romans says that Christ died so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." There's a means to living out the requirement of the law, but that means is the Spirit of Christ. The law's purpose is to show our need for help and thus drive us to Christ, who can help. There's a pretty fascinating passage from the Letter to Diognetus, dated around AD 100 (plus or minus a couple decades), about this:
quote:
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. It could be that they could see the righteousness of the law, wanted to do it, but found themselves unable. Thus, they wanted to be saved from themselves and their own sin, weakness, and failings, and it could have nothing or little to do with danger or condemnation. Re Rom 7
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
truthlover writes: Jano's position is that the law's purpose is indeed to show us how to treat each other, but the result is that it shows us that we don't treat each other that way, thus condemning us. The resulting condemnation drives us to Christ. If that is indeed what iano is saying, I have no problem with that. But what he said back in Message 6 was:
quote: That's what I've been banging on about: the focus on condemnation. If iano agrees that the ultimate purpose of the law is to "show us how to treat each other", then we agree on that. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned. Hmm.
quote: This is not an exhaustive list. I don't think the law sets an impossibly high standard. Even Paul himself was keeping it. ("Blameless" is the word he used, I believe.) Its condemnation is just, because it can be kept. In fact, its condemnation is all the more just, because pardon for those who repent has always been available to those who will turn again to obedience (Ez 3:18,19). Nehemiah 9:17 is a great example of that. "They refused to obey, nor were they mindful of your wonders...but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage, but you are a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and you did not forsake them." Is 55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, because he will abundantly pardon.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
That's what I've been banging on about: the focus on condemnation. If iano agrees that the ultimate purpose of the law is to "show us how to treat each other", then we agree on that. Ok. You're right. I didn't have time to read the start of the thread, but it is obvious Jano harps on condemnation.
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