IC challenge: Evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle!

I have been away for awhile and was interested in the status of things. Doesn’t look as if much has changed - ignorance and superstition are still going strong. ID is all the rage now, so I thought I would address this issueI believe a fundamental problem with the ID debate, is the distinction between the process of design and what “drives” the process. We humans are used to observing another human, a designer, engage in the process of designing something, especially something rather complicated like a watch or a bicycle. Since we note that the human body is a system, we naturally assume that a “designer” must be involved and as the human system is complex, we assume that the designer must be intelligent.What those who propose ID totally overlook is an alternate: the well known “design process”, Trial and Error (T&E). This design process is used extensively by human designers, especially in such fields as pharmaceuticals, although a more rational approach is beginning to appear in this field. The essence of the T&E design process is to put something together and see if it works. If it does, the design is finished, if it doesn’t, something else is tried until success is achieved.A couple words about evolution. Evolution is a process, unfortunately a slow moving process and thus difficult to detect. Charles Darwin’s claim to fame is merely that he was the first person to accumulate enough data/evidence to detect the process. It must be emphasized that if Darwin had not detected the process of evolution, someone else would have.Regarding the design process “driving” evolution, it is simply T&E. Genetic mutation provides the Trials and natural selection eliminates the weaker Errors. The fact that over 95% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct is proof of the effectiveness of the T&E design process. Also, the vast amount of time over which the T&E design process has operated has allowed all of the extant species to evolve - there is no need for an intelligent designer.Furthermore, it must be noted that the T&E process is sub-optimum. Once a successful design has been achieved, the design effort ceases. The problem with this is that a better design might be achieved if more effort was spent. This aspect of the T&E design governing evolution is apparent in things like the human glottis which provides a valve between the respiratory system and the digestive system. Many people have died due to suffocation because of this sub-optimum design.RegardsSoplar

Hi ParsimoniumI believe we have communicated previously.My comment re 95% of species being extinct is a bit loose. While I believe trial is an apt term, error needs some expansion.As I mention in my post, the principal argument for ID is the need for a “designer” to operate the evolutionary “design process” I believe that there is no question that there is a design process active in evolution, but this process is driven by genetic mutations which automatically produce a large number of new trial organisms. These new trails are subjected to whatever conditions are extant and thus those sufficiently fit survive and those who are not do not.Re the 95% of species that have existed are currently extinct, it is important to note that their time on earth has varied widely. If one examines the fossil record, one sees a continual improvement in organisms. One also sees that many early organisms remain even though those with greater survivability appear. A good example is fish. Fish first appeared about 500 mya (http://www.dol-ex.org/HTML/p7.html) but some of species are still swimming in the ocean. On the other hand, dinosaurs appeared about 250 mya and all disappeared abruptly at the end of the cretaceous period, 65 mya (http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/amcgann/dinosaurs/page2.htm)Thus, while 95% of all species have ultimately become extinct, the “errors” that caused their demise did not immediately manifest themselves. Thus the Trials portion of evolutionary T&E process is quite effective in producing ever improving organisms, but the Errors portion (elimination of less fit organisms) is not in general time synchronous with the Trials portion. In the end, the less fit do not survive, even though it takes awhile for conditions to arise which cause the less fit to become extinct.One interesting aspect of the evolutionary T&E process is the appearance of the organism with the greatest survival ability - Homo sapiens. This has led to the increased rate of extinction of those organisms less able to compete which includes just about all species.Regarding the ID debate, the most important idea to note that the production of trials and subsequent winnowing occurs without the need of any supernatural ID.RegardsSoplar

Hi NighttrainI had about givien up on this site. Most of the responses are dogmatic or rather confusing. It's nice to "hear" from someone rational.I believe you are quite correct in excepting bacteria and viri (of course, I allowed for exceptions by the phrase "which includes just about all species"). At present, bacteria and viri appear to be able to adapt in manners which have so far thwarted our efforts to vanquish them. Of course, we only wish to vanquish that "bad" ones - multicelled life would be impossible without the "good" ones.I believe that advances in microbiology, genetic maipulation, etc will eventually supply humans with the tools to eradicate even the most adaptable microrganism. A good example is the progress being made in the struggle with HIV. HIV is the most insidious microrganism to date. It propagates via sexual activity - something we all want/need but are unwilling/unable to talk about, and HIV attacks the bodies basic defense mechanisms.Regarding the possible ultimate ascendency of bacteria and viri, I find it intriguing that, should bacteria and viris be the ultimate survivors, life will have come full circle since all life began with single celled life.One last comment - you didn't address the main theme of my posting: there is a "life design" process at work - T&E. The process is "driven" by genetic mutations which give rise to improved life forms which are ultimately selected over lesser organsims. This design process proceeds without any intervention of a supernatural being. Do you agree?Soplar