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Author Topic:   Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 91 of 106 (255159)
10-27-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
10-27-2005 2:18 PM


Re: Use your head
iano writes:

How about if someone came in and simply took your old lifestyle from you. Erased all the tendency to overeat, erased all the desire to overeat, who gave you the figure you always wanted - a perfect figure. Who did it all for you without you having to do a shred of work yourself.

Now THAT would be good news. And that's the gospel too.


It doesn't usually happen that way. The old lifestyle is hard to shake.

Sure, some people go through a conversion experience. But that's largely psychological, and the effect eventually wears off. The "born again" alcoholic goes back to drinking. The "born again" gambler goes back to gambling.

Some people are able to turn their lives around. But that involves a lot of hard work, and perhaps requires help from their friends. The "faith vs. works" arguments trivialize the difficulties, and reduce a very real problem to word play.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:18 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by truthlover, posted 10-27-2005 4:59 PM nwr has not yet responded
 Message 97 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 7:04 AM nwr has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2137 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 92 of 106 (255173)
10-27-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
10-27-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Salvation, grace, & Rom 6:23
Hi, Jano,

Your version didn't include the word 'therefore' whereas 3 versions I have include that.

Just a technical point, but, yes, mine did. "Let not sin therefore..." It just wasn't the first word.

Okay, Romans 6:5. You wrote it as, "5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

The KJV doesn't have certainly. Nor does my Greek reference show anything that ought to be translated certainly. As far as I can tell, your reference must have tranlated kai as certainly. Kai is just your typical word for and or also.

So when you explain:

certainty of resurrection

That's not there. Yes, those united with him in death should expect to be united in his resurrection at well, but this is no verse to use to proclaim its certainty.

He is explaining the positional change that has happened (into Christ (out of Adam)).

Well, I don't agree with this, but I can't see that matters. Positional or not positional doesn't affect what's directly said later (as I'll point out in a moment).

He is pointing out the them how ludicrous it is to act in anyway contrary to the position they now hold.

I agree he is pointing out what a bad idea it is to act contrary to what he's describing. However, that's my point, not yours. My point is that it's possible to act contrary to what he's describing. That's why he's describing it, because some people are acting contrary to it, so he wants them to see what's true and start acting in accordance with it.

I'm thinking you just said you agree with that. You said it was ludicrous to act contrary to this position, not impossible.

The issue is, when some people are acting contrary to this, when they are saying that grace abounds, so let's sin, and when they are yielding their members as servants to sin, what's the consequence?

Sin? How can you? Do you not realise what has happened to you? You were trapped under law, in sin, dead to God but you have been translated out of that into something else - out of Adam and into Christ. Sin remains but now only in your mortal body. It's going to die but resist it precisely because of what your spiritual position is

I agree with this totally. You use "resist" here; I used "try" in my post. He's obviously saying all this to convince someone of something. I say he's saying it to convince people who are not resisting that they ought to resist.

I think you have said you agree with that in your post.

[cut excessive wordiness here]

So, with 6:1-11 mostly agreed upon, what is the consequence to those who don't resist?

I say, and I reference my previous post, vv.12-23 say that there is fruit, end, and wages to that choice to resist or not resist. Grace empowers you. The "position" in Christ is the ground of that grace. We are agreed on all that. But, if you don't resist and, ludicrously, as you put it, yield yourself to sin so that grace may abound, then the end is death. If you resist (which implies trying and effort) then you get the end, righteousness, which results in eternal life.

Is that not what it says, even using the interpretations you just gave?

This message has been edited by truthlover, 10-27-2005 04:50 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:02 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 12:48 PM truthlover has not yet responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2137 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 93 of 106 (255175)
10-27-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nwr
10-27-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Use your head
Sure, some people go through a conversion experience. But that's largely psychological, and the effect eventually wears off. The "born again" alcoholic goes back to drinking. The "born again" gambler goes back to gambling.

That's because over 2,000 years Christianity has become a facade, a caricature. It's really just play acting what used to be real.

But that involves a lot of hard work, and perhaps requires help from their friends.

I disagree with the word "perhaps" here. It should be something resembling "in almost every case."

It is written, "Encourage one another every day...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Do you know anyone who does that or gets that? Every day?

Mostly, people are just play acting what used to be real.

When you do it the real way...you know, where you lose your own life and enter the kingdom/church/community of God, almost no one goes back to drinking or gambling.

Unfortunately, on a large scale, I have to appeal to history to back up that statement. Origen's boastfulness about the communities of Christ in the early 200's are a great source for that. On a smaller scale, though...200 people and 15 years, we're getting the same results Origen got. People are not only staying away from old vices, but actually becoming extraordinarily happy and unselfish.

The "faith vs. works" arguments trivialize the difficulties, and reduce a very real problem to word play.

Yep. When you quit play acting, and start keeping tabs of results, (Y'shua called it "judging by fruit"), the faith vs. works arguments, and most other arguments, go out the window, eclipsed by the need to DO things: make decisions, help people, serve, battle the mortal body, and generally live and know God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nwr, posted 10-27-2005 3:57 PM nwr has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 94 of 106 (255254)
10-28-2005 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
10-27-2005 10:05 AM


Re: Use your head
jar writes:

Can we examinine that a little closer.

Sure...

jar writes:

Is 1 Enoch part of the Bible?

Are the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John part of the Bible?

At the time Jesus lived, what were the books of the Bible?

What about when Paul was writting his Epistles?

How about the Apocalypse of Adam?

How about the the Assumption of Moses?

How about the Ascension of Isaiah?

Would the Gospel of Thomas be included?

Actually, we can expand the range to include anything that anyone calling themselves Christian considers valid Scripture, including such things ranging from all the deutero-canonical books amongst Catholics all the way to the Book of Morman of the Latter Day Saints for example.

I suspect you will not find any Scriptural passages amongst any of these group's 'Bibles' which explicitly state that the Scriptures are the only way to know about God.

This isn't to say that the Scriptures cannot actually make that claim. The Scripture amongst the various groups do make many claims about themselves.

This is to say that this claim seems suspiciously missing from all these works -- many of which actually indirectly make the opposite of the claim that God can be known only from the Scriptures.

For example:

Gospel of Thomas writes:

Jesus said, "It is I who am the light over all. It is I who am the entirety: it is from me that the entirety has come, and to me that the entirety goes. Split a piece of wood: I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 10-27-2005 10:05 AM jar has not yet responded

    
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 95 of 106 (255262)
10-28-2005 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Brian
10-27-2005 3:36 PM


Re: Not an issue
Exactly.

There were many times in Biblical history that people did not have any Scriptures, and yet they still knew about God -- quite personally I might add.

It seems to me that the Scriptures were placed more as an anchor in to ensure that people would not totally lose contact with God. Even still, many people knew about God's qualities even without the Scriptures (aka: primitive sky gods).

Others, such as certain Greek philosophers, determined precise qualities of God apparently without any recourse to the Scriptures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Brian, posted 10-27-2005 3:36 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 96 of 106 (255275)
10-28-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Brian
10-27-2005 3:30 PM


Re: Not that easy to be saved
Brian writes:

I would interpret Matthew 25 as works before righteousness.

You might do that but note that the separation occurs (righteous/unrighteous) before there is any mention of works. No matter. The point was that works:cause of righteousness/works:consequence of righteousness are equally valid interpretations based on this passage alone. To look further we must look elsewhere

I would concentrate on the Matthew passage where Jesus is speaking rather than promote Paul’s beliefs before Jesus’ words.

Why? The only way we can assume anything at all to be accurate is to assume for the sake of discussion that it's all God-breathed. As soon as we stray from that then none of it can be supposed to be accurate (for the purposes of discussion). Should we put Johns recording (without any technology to help) of Jesus words as accurate (only possible if god-inspired presumed) but Pauls just writing own doctrine (not god-inspired). Seems like a recipe for whatever your having yourself to me :)

I would say that to propose the latter is to suggest predestination, which I find difficult to accept as it means God created people in the knowledge that they would be eternally damned.

Pre-destination is a difficult topic but given none of know what eternity is like and how it might operate, it is impossible to form concretes about it. There is ample elsewhere to draw rational conclusions that God loves all, wants that none would perish, whoseover believe, go spread the word etc

I won't go on here Brian as I mentioned to Ringo. Its well off topic. I've posed a thread dealing with salvation-by-trying which awaits approval. Maybe there?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Brian, posted 10-27-2005 3:30 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 97 of 106 (255277)
10-28-2005 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by nwr
10-27-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Use your head
nwr writes:

How about if someone came in and simply took your old lifestyle from you. Erased all the tendency to overeat, erased all the desire to overeat

nwr writes:

It doesn't usually happen that way. The old lifestyle is hard to shake.

It happens exactly that way... To clarify. You, me and everyone else are made up of mortal/immortal bits. Body/spirit. The "new figure" applies only to the spirit - that's the bit that God is interested in saving. That is the bit which is declared righteous. The bit which forms who you are: NWR. You are, biblically, not your fingers or toes or brain. The body is but a vehicle in a time based world. Sin remains in the mortal body; Christian or otherwise. The Christian will struggle with sin IN HIS BODY and is for various reasons exhorted to resist sin. But none of these have anything to do with salvation. The body is going to die anyway.

Do you mind if I have the last word on this - it's too off topic. Theres a thread posed awaiting release "Trying a stairway to heaven" maybe there?

This message has been edited by iano, 28-Oct-2005 12:04 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nwr, posted 10-27-2005 3:57 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 11:40 AM iano has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4626 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 98 of 106 (255315)
10-28-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by iano
10-27-2005 10:30 AM


Re: Use your head
iano writes:


How are we saved? By grace of course. Grace/gratis/graciousness. A free gift isn't a free gift if it has to be earned. Whilst the wages of sin is death (wages (in the form of damnation) being something earned) the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. The gift is from God. And like any free gift, it only has to be accepted. Not earned.

I completely agree with you here.

iano writes:

In order to accept or reject the 'manifestation' of the Holy Spirit, one has to have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says this?

iano writes:

And having the Holy Spirit is limited to those that are in Christ, ie: those who are saved.

Again, can you show me this in the Scriptures?

In my reading of the Scriptures I see that the Holy Spirit was very active well before the full knowledge of Christ was revealed.

For example:

Psalm 51:10-12 writes:

Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

And this:

Isaiah writes:


Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.

Then his people recalled the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people—
where is he who brought them through the sea,
with the shepherd of his flock?

Where is he who set
his Holy Spirit among them,
who sent his glorious arm of power
to be at Moses' right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,
who led them through the depths?

Like a horse in open country,
they did not stumble;
like cattle that go down to the plain,
they were given rest by the Spirit of the LORD.

This is how you guided your people
to make for yourself a glorious name.


Edit: Is it fair to say the Spirit of the Lord that hovered over the waters on the very first day of creation was the Holy Spirit?

iano writes:

Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have salvatory/damnatory value.

Scriptural reference?


Edit: By the way, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. In this above quote you say that "Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have salvatory/damnatory value." However, in your very first quote above I'll paraphrase what you said, "Whilst the wages of sin is death being something earned -- wages in the form of damnation."

Looking at one side of the debate, if indeed works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value, then how can the wages of sin be something earned?

iano writes:

Neither do works prior to having the Holy Spirit have salvatory/damnatory value - all who have not the Holy Spirit are damned anyway.

Exactly who doesn't have the Holy Spirit -- and Scriptural reference please?

iano writes:

IOW you get the Holy Spirit/are saved when you are put into Christ.

So back when the prophets of old were moved by the Holy Spirit to utter God's words -- people who apparently didn't know Christ yet -- they actually did know Christ all along?

Ephesians 3:4-6 NIV writes:


In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And, of course, this...

2 Peter 1:21 writes:


For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

How were these people moved by the Holy Spirit if they didn't know Christ yet (as Ephesians 3:4-6 clearly notes above)?

:confused:

iano writes:

Good deeds/works/trying your best/giving money to the poor etc etc has nothing at all to do with getting saved.

That's right. I've repeatedly stated that our works cannot save us. It's a free gift.

Rather our good works are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God moving us to do so -- and our bad works are our rejection of God's Holy Spirit.

iano writes:

So all you loose-living but back-of-the-mind-worried-about-hell heathens out there can relax as far as that goes

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Furthermore, all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

That's what I thought the Scriptures said anyway.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-29-2005 01:40 AM


This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 99 of 106 (255337)
10-28-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by iano
10-28-2005 7:04 AM


Re: Use your head
iano writes:

It happens exactly that way... To clarify. You, me and everyone else are made up of mortal/immortal bits. Body/spirit. The "new figure" applies only to the spirit - that's the bit that God is interested in saving. That is the bit which is declared righteous. The bit which forms who you are: NWR. You are, biblically, not your fingers or toes or brain. The body is but a vehicle in a time based world. Sin remains in the mortal body; Christian or otherwise.


If you are correct about this, then christian theology reduces to nonsense. For, according to you, God is only interested in the spirit part, and the spirit part is sinless. Thus salvation would not be necessary.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 7:04 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 1:03 PM nwr has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 106 (255344)
10-28-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by truthlover
10-27-2005 4:48 PM


Re: Salvation, grace, & Rom 6:23
TL writes:

The KJV doesn't have certainly. Nor does my Greek reference show anything that ought to be translated certainly. As far as I can tell, your reference must have tranlated kai as certainly. Kai is just your typical word for and or also...

Foiled again :). Lets insert your greek translation in then...

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall also be united with him in a resurrection like his."

Is this not an if/then statement, ie: a logic statement? There is no conditions attached to it except a fulfillment of 'if'. If the 'if is true of you (as Paul says it is to those he addresses in the next verse) then the 'shall also' will happen to you. Your resurrection is dependant on the 'if'

Well, I don't agree with this, but I can't see that matters. Positional or not positional doesn't affect what's directly said later (as I'll point out in a moment).

Position is very important indeed. It can't be bypassed so easily. Something special has happened to a Christian: bapitism into Jesus. There is something true of the person who hasn't had this happen a there is the person who has had it happen. If "dead to sin" because of baptism then alive to sin without it. If "he that is dead (has been crucified with Christ) is freed from sin" then he who has not been crucified is still captive to sin. The Christian is dead to sin, is freed from sin. there are most definitely two camps described into which a person belongs

But a Christian sins still so what does this mean? "Our citizenship is in heaven" gives us a clue as to the repositioning. Our citizenship, the place where we belong has changed. We are "aliens" here on earth. It's as if we used to fight for the Nazis. God has changed our citizenship the that of the Allies. That is who we now belong to. It is a legal act, a forensic act. A declaration that our nationality has been changed.

Hence Pauls exhortation to resist sin: not because it will result in condemnation (for there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ (note same condition - in Christ) but because it is a contradiction of who we now are. His very use of 'its ludicrous' language instead the 'it's bad' language at the start of 6 reinforces this. "How shall (or could) we...??". "Do you not know...??".

My point is that it's possible to act contrary to what he's describing. That's why he's describing it, because some people are acting contrary to it, so he wants them to see what's true and start acting in accordance with it.

It is true that a person can still sin. But where does that sin occur. In what fashion. Paul talks of it occuring in the mortal flesh. No surprise. It wasn't the mortal flesh which was put to death afterall. It is not the mortal flesh which is freed from sin. It is old, dead to God spirit which has been put to death and reborn or resurrected "alive unto God". Spirit is free and alive and freed from sin, mortal flesh in which sin still resides.

You then talk of the consequences of sin occuring. But none are mentioned here:

Romans 6 writes:

20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But then what return (fruit) did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death.

Paul is again going to contrast two positions. He is reminding Christians what the 'benefit' of sin was before they were Christians and where it would have led had they remained so. More of "it's ludicrous to say 'shall we then sin..." - which is the issue he is still dealing with...

The switching of tense "the end of those things is death" from past to present doesn't mean continuing in sin will result in their (spiritual) death. "those things" refers to something specific: sins committed whilst in the former position. But they are not in the former position.

But now....

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

They are in a new position, spiritually (although not physically) set free from sin. The wages of sin is indeed death. And die that which carries sin will. The mortal body....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 10-27-2005 4:48 PM truthlover has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 101 of 106 (255348)
10-28-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by nwr
10-28-2005 11:40 AM


Re: Use your head
nwr writes:

If you are correct about this, then christian theology reduces to nonsense. For, according to you, God is only interested in the spirit part, and the spirit part is sinless. Thus salvation would not be necessary.

Not quite nwr. Man is body and spirit. As born, the body is going to die because of sin in it. The spirit is not going to die because it is eternal. But it being unrighteous means it will have its sin punished - Hell. God wants to save the spirit from this. How he does it is to take Christs righteousness and gives or clothes us in it. And righteousness is permitted to reside with God. Which is great...

Did you know that a saved spirit gets a new body to reside in heaven with. Like its not just wispy spirits floating around :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 11:40 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 3:17 PM iano has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 102 of 106 (255369)
10-28-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by iano
10-28-2005 1:03 PM


Re: Use your head
iano writes:

As born, the body is going to die because of sin in it. The spirit is not going to die because it is eternal. But it being unrighteous means it will have its sin punished - Hell.


This still makes no sense.

If the sin is in the body, rather than the spirit, then the spirit is not unrighteous.

Did you know that a saved spirit gets a new body to reside in heaven with.

So the tradition says. Whether it makes sense is a different matter entirely.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 1:03 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 10:34 PM nwr has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 103 of 106 (255436)
10-28-2005 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nwr
10-28-2005 3:17 PM


Re: Use your head
nwr writes:

This still makes no sense.If the sin is in the body, rather than the spirit, then the spirit is not unrighteous.

It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me neither nwr. I remember the first time I tripped across Corintians 2:14. It talks of things not making sense....and why.

Then I remembered "seek and you shall find"

And it is there....

I know I bang on about Romans alot but it fits. You have the Gospels - 4 of them. Accounts of the life and works of the person who was sent to save man. Then Acts: the description of the beginnings of Christianity - the very beginnings of the 'movement' he established to acccomplish his goal - sowing the seed as it were. Then Romans: the detailed description of the mechanics of the gospel - the 'methodology' of the workings of his method

Romans is the place to look if you are like me - technically minded. And one theme comes across throughout. Contrast. Contrast between one position and another. Read it with that thought in mind. Contrast between Christian and non-Christian (in Gods eyes not mans labels). Contrast all the way.

You will see spirit unrighteous in there alright.

(and if you were feeling particulary brave/humble you might ask Him to help you read it. "Lord, help me understand" is a prayer that will be heard - even if YOU don't really believe it in your heart. That's just the way it is)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 104 of 106 (255437)
10-28-2005 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by iano
10-28-2005 10:34 PM


Re: Use your head
Iano, as a new christian, you may not realize this, but I would be very careful of the claim of a "prayer that will be heard."

This type of claim is a major reason why a large portion of ex-christians are just that, EX-christians.


Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 10:34 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 106 (255460)
10-29-2005 5:36 AM


Topic?
When was the last message about Sola Scriptura?

I know a few Off Topic posts are fine and often split off into new topics, but it would be nice to round off the SS topic!

AdminBrian


  
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