EvC Forum: Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?

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Topic: Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?

Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Message 53 of 106 (254142)
10-23-2005 8:01 AM

Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
10-21-2005 8:10 AM

Re: Isaiah 8:16

So do you feel that it indicates that the Scriptures are the only reliable means -- or is this an example of a clear instruction for this time only but not necessarilly implying all the time?

Or is there something else?

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	Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 10-21-2005 8:10 AM		purpledawn has replied

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	Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 10-23-2005 8:32 AM		Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1359 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 55 of 106 (254152)
10-23-2005 8:40 AM

Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
10-23-2005 8:32 AM

Re: Isaiah 8:16

Hope he didn't forget his band aids.

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	Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 10-23-2005 8:32 AM		purpledawn has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1359 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 70 of 106 (255000)
10-27-2005 3:22 AM

Reply to: Message 65 by iano
10-26-2005 11:42 AM

Re: Use your head

iano writes:

My own inclination is to think that there is no biblical case to be made for "trying" as a means to salvation /lack of 'trying' as a means to damnation.

Then how are we saved then?

If our good actions are not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and if our bad actions are not a manifestation of our rejecting the Holy Spirit, then how exactly does God determine one's salvation?

By the way, I did edit that previous post.

here on this page...message 41

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	Message 65 by iano, posted 10-26-2005 11:42 AM		iano has replied

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Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 71 of 106 (255001)
10-27-2005 3:26 AM

Reply to: Message 69 by jar
10-26-2005 12:39 PM

Re: Use your head

jar writes:

And the answer to that is "The Bible cannot say the the Bible is the only source."

Actually, it can make that claim -- just as the Scriptures do make other claims about itself. The Scriptures, however, do not ever make that claim as far as I can determine.

I'm not familiar with the Ethiopian Christian Church Bible or the Samaritan Christian Church Bible, but I don't think these "Bibles" ever make this claim either.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-27-2005 03:33 AM

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	Message 69 by jar, posted 10-26-2005 12:39 PM		jar has replied

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	Message 74 by jar, posted 10-27-2005 10:05 AM		Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo

Member (Idle past 1359 days)

Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 94 of 106 (255254)
10-28-2005 1:58 AM

Reply to: Message 74 by jar
10-27-2005 10:05 AM

Re: Use your head

jar writes:

Can we examinine that a little closer.

Sure...

jar writes:

Is 1 Enoch part of the Bible?

Are the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John part of the Bible?

At the time Jesus lived, what were the books of the Bible?

What about when Paul was writting his Epistles?

How about the Apocalypse of Adam?

How about the the Assumption of Moses?

How about the Ascension of Isaiah?

Would the Gospel of Thomas be included?

Actually, we can expand the range to include anything that anyone calling themselves Christian considers valid Scripture, including such things ranging from all the deutero-canonical books amongst Catholics all the way to the Book of Morman of the Latter Day Saints for example.

I suspect you will not find any Scriptural passages amongst any of these group's 'Bibles' which explicitly state that the Scriptures are the only way to know about God.

This isn't to say that the Scriptures cannot actually make that claim. The Scripture amongst the various groups do make many claims about themselves.

This is to say that this claim seems suspiciously missing from all these works -- many of which actually indirectly make the opposite of the claim that God can be known only from the Scriptures.

For example:

Gospel of Thomas writes:

Jesus said, "It is I who am the light over all. It is I who am the entirety: it is from me that the entirety has come, and to me that the entirety goes. Split a piece of wood: I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there."

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Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 95 of 106 (255262)
10-28-2005 3:11 AM

Reply to: Message 90 by Brian
10-27-2005 3:36 PM

Re: Not an issue

Exactly.

There were many times in Biblical history that people did not have any Scriptures, and yet they still knew about God -- quite personally I might add.

It seems to me that the Scriptures were placed more as an anchor in to ensure that people would not totally lose contact with God. Even still, many people knew about God's qualities even without the Scriptures (aka: primitive sky gods).

Others, such as certain Greek philosophers, determined precise qualities of God apparently without any recourse to the Scriptures.

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Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Posts: 712

Joined: 04-12-2005

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Message 98 of 106 (255315)
10-28-2005 10:17 AM

Reply to: Message 75 by iano
10-27-2005 10:30 AM

Re: Use your head

iano writes:

How are we saved? By grace of course. Grace/gratis/graciousness. A free gift isn't a free gift if it has to be earned. Whilst the wages of sin is death (wages (in the form of damnation) being something earned) the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. The gift is from God. And like any free gift, it only has to be accepted. Not earned.

I completely agree with you here.

iano writes:

In order to accept or reject the 'manifestation' of the Holy Spirit, one has to have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says this?

iano writes:

And having the Holy Spirit is limited to those that are in Christ, ie: those who are saved.

Again, can you show me this in the Scriptures?

In my reading of the Scriptures I see that the Holy Spirit was very active well before the full knowledge of Christ was revealed.

For example:

Psalm 51:10-12 writes:

Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

And this:

Isaiah writes:

Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.

Then his people recalled the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people”
where is he who brought them through the sea,
with the shepherd of his flock?

Where is he who set
his Holy Spirit among them,
who sent his glorious arm of power
to be at Moses' right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,
who led them through the depths?

Like a horse in open country,
they did not stumble;
like cattle that go down to the plain,
they were given rest by the Spirit of the LORD.

This is how you guided your people
to make for yourself a glorious name.

Edit: Is it fair to say the Spirit of the Lord that hovered over the waters on the very first day of creation was the Holy Spirit?

iano writes:

Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have salvatory/damnatory value.

Scriptural reference?

Edit: By the way, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. In this above quote you say that "Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have salvatory/damnatory value." However, in your very first quote above I'll paraphrase what you said, "Whilst the wages of sin is death being something earned -- wages in the form of damnation."

Looking at one side of the debate, if indeed works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value, then how can the wages of sin be something earned?

iano writes:

Neither do works prior to having the Holy Spirit have salvatory/damnatory value - all who have not the Holy Spirit are damned anyway.

Exactly who doesn't have the Holy Spirit -- and Scriptural reference please?

iano writes:

IOW you get the Holy Spirit/are saved when you are put into Christ.

So back when the prophets of old were moved by the Holy Spirit to utter God's words -- people who apparently didn't know Christ yet -- they actually did know Christ all along?

Ephesians 3:4-6 NIV writes:

In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And, of course, this...

2 Peter 1:21 writes:

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

How were these people moved by the Holy Spirit if they didn't know Christ yet (as Ephesians 3:4-6 clearly notes above)?

iano writes:

Good deeds/works/trying your best/giving money to the poor etc etc has nothing at all to do with getting saved.

That's right. I've repeatedly stated that our works cannot save us. It's a free gift.

Rather our good works are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God moving us to do so -- and our bad works are our rejection of God's Holy Spirit.

iano writes:

So all you loose-living but back-of-the-mind-worried-about-hell heathens out there can relax as far as that goes

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Furthermore, all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

That's what I thought the Scriptures said anyway.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-29-2005 01:40 AM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 75 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 10:30 AM		iano has not replied

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