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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 191 of 204 (255347)
10-28-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
10-28-2005 11:48 AM


Re: A General Reply
It makes no sense to say that the law condemns us and then say that the law is a mechanism for salvation.
While I would hate to be found agreeing with Jano on anything having to do with salvation, I don't think is a fair representation of what (s)he said.
Jano's position is that the law's purpose is indeed to show us how to treat each other, but the result is that it shows us that we don't treat each other that way, thus condemning us. The resulting condemnation drives us to Christ.
Actually, I guess I do agree with him, sort of. Paul's letter to the Romans says that Christ died so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." There's a means to living out the requirement of the law, but that means is the Spirit of Christ. The law's purpose is to show our need for help and thus drive us to Christ, who can help.
There's a pretty fascinating passage from the Letter to Diognetus, dated around AD 100 (plus or minus a couple decades), about this:
quote:
As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 1:15 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 192 of 204 (255350)
10-28-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law.
It could be that they could see the righteousness of the law, wanted to do it, but found themselves unable. Thus, they wanted to be saved from themselves and their own sin, weakness, and failings, and it could have nothing or little to do with danger or condemnation.
Re Rom 7

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 194 of 204 (255355)
10-28-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned.
Hmm.
quote:
Ps 18:20,21: Yahweh rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of Yahweh, and I have not wickedly departed from my God...I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from inquity.
Gen 6:9: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations.
Heb 11:4: By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous.
1 Jn 3:12: ...not like Cain, who was of the devil and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous.
1 Kings 15:14: But the high places were not removed. Nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with Yahweh all his days.
2 Kings 20:3: (Prayer by Hezekiah, this prayer was answered with 15 additional years of life, so we can assume he wasn't wrong about himself.) I beg you, O Yahweh, remember now how I have walked before you in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done what is good in your sight.
Job 1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job: and that man was perfect and upright, one that feared God and eschewed evil.
This is not an exhaustive list.
I don't think the law sets an impossibly high standard. Even Paul himself was keeping it. ("Blameless" is the word he used, I believe.) Its condemnation is just, because it can be kept.
In fact, its condemnation is all the more just, because pardon for those who repent has always been available to those who will turn again to obedience (Ez 3:18,19). Nehemiah 9:17 is a great example of that. "They refused to obey, nor were they mindful of your wonders...but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage, but you are a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and you did not forsake them."
Is 55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, because he will abundantly pardon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 195 of 204 (255356)
10-28-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
10-28-2005 1:15 PM


Re: A General Reply
That's what I've been banging on about: the focus on condemnation. If iano agrees that the ultimate purpose of the law is to "show us how to treat each other", then we agree on that.
Ok. You're right. I didn't have time to read the start of the thread, but it is obvious Jano harps on condemnation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 1:15 PM ringo has not replied

  
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