Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 1 of 303 (255030)
10-27-2005 7:12 AM


As far as I can make out the only form of words Jesus used regarding laws (in relation to our adhering to them) was or can only be implied to be, command form. Some examples:
"Judge not lest you be judged"
"Love your enemy"
"Love God with all your heart soul and mind"
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
If Jesus said "do a,b,c in order to be saved" and not "try your best to do a,b,c, in order to be saved", what is the biblical basis for the idea that salvation/damnation is a function of our trying / not trying enough to do a,b,c.
I stress 'biblical basis' because what I have heard thus far seems to be result of peoples own ideas as to what Jesus must have meant, ie: people apply their own subjective logic to fill the biblical gaps in making their case for salvation/damnation by works.
This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 03:36 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 10-27-2005 10:27 AM iano has replied
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 9:23 AM iano has replied
 Message 6 by Legend, posted 10-28-2005 10:19 AM iano has replied
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2005 11:15 AM iano has not replied
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2005 11:26 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 303 (255086)
10-27-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
10-27-2005 10:27 AM


Re: Where to put?
Hi AdminNosy,
Tidied a little to clarify but anybody with a view is going to know what it's about, I reckon.
A suitable location would be Faith & Belief (for want of a Heresy forum )
Ian
This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 03:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 10-27-2005 10:27 AM AdminNosy has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 9 of 303 (255357)
10-28-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-28-2005 9:23 AM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
Phat writes:
So we are commanded to love our neighbor, for example. Does this mean that I should not try and do so? What if I am unable to love with all my heart? What if I don't even like my neighbor?
My point was that Jesus used command words in relation to our following the law. Period. That you try and will often fail does not change the fact that a command was issued. If he commanded and you, try as you might, fail to obey the command then you have sinned. Some will try very hard and have x amount of sin. Others will try not at all and have a lot of sin. But amount of sin is not what matters "He who follows the law but stumbles on even the tiniest piece is guilty of breaking it all"
First World War trench. The command is issued "Over the top lads!". Folk start trying. Some crouch in fear and tremble in the corner - the hand reaches for the rifle but quickly retracts back. Other start climbing the steps up but hear the bullets whizzing overhead and cling to the ladder
Both get shot at dawn for dereliction of duty. The command was "over the top" not try your best to get over the top.
The point is that trying is never proscribed as sufficient to fulfill the demands of the law. Only obeying.
But nobody can obey the law in full. "All have sinned and fallen short.." "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Not even the people who were steeped in trying to follow the law - the Pharisees - got close: "white washed tombs" Jesus called them
Fail on one point and your as damned as the person who fails alot of it. "Who then can be saved" cried the disciples. One is saved by the person who fulfill the law on their behalf - the law they themselves could not keep.
Sure you should try to love your neighbour. But you won't be saved by doing so - you'll just have crouched in the trench of loving your neighbour not gone over the top in doing so. And its when a person is saved and has grasped just what that means (both in terms of what they, without own merit receive and what they have merited but now avoid) that it becomes possible to love others in a way previously impossible - because of the realisation of how much they have been loved. Only then is it possible to forgive others in a way previously impossible - because of the realisation of how much they have been forgiven. Only then will one avoid judging others in a way previously impossible - because of the realisation that they weren't judged
(biblical basis for trying a stairway to heaven)I dunno...you tell me.
I dunno either. I claim it's impossible to demonstrate. I can do much Phat but not the impossible
This topic is always going to be discussed by using peoples own ideas about what the Bible means.
No problem there but I did want it to be argued from the bible - not for example what RC tradition says about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-28-2005 9:23 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 1:51 PM iano has not replied
 Message 13 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:33 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 303 (255429)
10-28-2005 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Legend
10-28-2005 10:19 AM


legend writes:
I love my wife with all my heart and soul; we may quarrel occasionally and I sometimes let her down but I still love her with all my heart.
Having some exposure to you I would say you make a fine husband. And I would say that your wife is aware of that fact - taking all things into consideration: the friends of hers whose husbands beat them, or don't pay maintenance or who fail to communicate with them in any meaningful way...you'd be a diamond (male to male tip - use that fact )
But that is not the point here. "All your heart". Which of us can say - honestly and at all times - "all of my heart? Surely when (us British Isle blokes only - the world is a strange place: it doesn't have pubs), when we are chatting up the bird in the local, and the wife is at home and we have a few to many pints on, and we are thinking to ourselves: "I wouldn't mind a piece of that" know that:
we are not loving our wives with all our heart/soul/minds.
It's not like it is the first time we have done this. Surely if we loved with h/s/m + based on past performance, we would avoid the pub, avoid the situation that makes it possible to love our wives with anything less than h/s/m. If it was with h/s/m then we should be quite happy, when telling our wives about the night down the pub.... about the 25 yr old blond with the firm breasts. But we don't. Because we recognise that h/s/m....er..... wasn't exactly it.
Was it Legend....?
And if it was "the best we could do at the time" then.....whats excluded? Who on earth would warrant a place in Hell? Sure couldn't we all stand up on the Day of Judgement and legitimaly claim that we done wot wus best...."under the circumstances - m'lud"
"Case dismissed!" I think not...
legend writes:
If what he said couldn't be achieved, then Jesus would have lied or intentionally mislead the audience and the man who asked him the question.
Non sequitur. Q: "How do I jump over the moon?" A: "Jump over the moon"
legend writes:
If you think that the directions Jesus gave to the man on how to get saved weren't going to lead him there then Jesus lied to the man. It's as simple as that!
Just to clarify the above point: if the directions are (and can only be): London? M4 to junction 23 then M3 to junction 2 then M25 (patience is a virtue) to junction 17 the left then second right, is all useless...... if the person cannot read.
Jesus was asked directions...he gave them. That we cannot follow them is not his problem*. You would think a person who could not read, in the course of being given such directions might hold up their hand and say: " I can't do this"
Which is kind of the gospel in a nutshell...
*But he decided to make it his problem anyway: "step in I'll bring you there if you like." If you like indeed...
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 03:04 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 12:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Legend, posted 10-28-2005 10:19 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 10-29-2005 6:37 AM iano has not replied
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-29-2005 8:41 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 303 (255475)
10-29-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 7:33 AM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
mrx writes:
Fixed your typos.
TEP....is that a fundi by another name
mrx writes:
As I mentioned in another thread, you seem to be contradicting yourself here..."Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value." vs. "Whilst the wages of sin is death being something earned -- wages in the form of damnation."
It would be contrdictory if it weren't for the fact that there are two types of people contrasted all the time. Those in Christ vs. those not in Christ.
Those in Adam (where all were born), should they die in that position, receive the wages for their sin.
Those in Christ (born again) don't receive the wages of sin - because he received the wages instead of the them. And because the penalty has been paid, those in Christ are free men. Guiltless thus Righteous. There is nothing preventing God doing what he wants to do...adopting them as sons.
mrx writes:
Looking at the damnation by failing side of the debate, if indeed works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have damnatory value, then how can the wages of sin be something earned?
They are earned - Jesus takes the punishment. If I sin as a Christian my sin is taken by Christ on the cross. Which is, as you would imagine it, a strong motivation not to sin or as Pauls language at the start of Romans 6 goes "How can you even consider continuing in sin!!??"
mrx writes:
I'll maintain what I've been saying all along: We can do nothing to 'earn' our salvation. In fact, we have to do nothing -- nothing more than be docile to the motion of the Holy Spirit. God will do the work for us if we are simply open to his Spirit.
Whilst I agree that we can do nothing to earn our salvation - it is all of God - we don't get it by default either. Damnation is the default positon - we are all born in Adam
iano writes:
John 16:8 - And when he (the Holy Spirit) has come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
The Spirit does draw and convict (or convince) men of their need of salvation. He shows them their sin. He holds up the impossible standard of the law for example and lets man see just how far he falls short of it. When a man yields to the call (however long it takes) he will come to see himself as God sees him: a hopeless, bankrupt sinner - up to his neck in it no matter how good he may appear by world standards. He will realise his position that nothing he can do will change that and that the wages of his sin will be death and Hell. He will see that this, whilst undesirable, is a completely merited and just decision on Gods part....
iano writes:
Important Note: this process of yielding to the Spirits workings is not a conscious one in the sense that the person is aware of the Spirit as anything to do with God. It comes from situations in everyday life: heart response when doing bad stuff: doing it, not being able to help doing it but heart hating doing it all the while. Finding ones own actions, thoughts, words etc to be somehow rotten...even if another part enjoys the thrill. If there is a war going on inside... then that's the Holy Spirit convicting of sin
......He can only cry out for mercy and assuming he does that, mercy he will receive. It is at that point that, amongst other things to do with salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the man. It is at that point he becomes saved.
Or he can resist this call, ignore it, fight against it, deny it, grieve the Spirit. He can commit the only sin that God can't forgive: the refusal of Gods offer to forgive all...by own free will
iano writes:
Before salvation: Holy Spirit convincing
At salvation: Holy Spirit taking up residence
mrx writes:
When we fail it's our own fault -- because we've resisted God's Spirit. When we succeed we give glory to God -- because we have been moved by God's Spirit to do so. I don't think I can make this any simpler -- and I think it's plainly evident all throughout the Scripture.
I agree. But people who have the Spirit are saved. That's when the Spirit moves in. And only then. The work being done by the Spirit once in, is sanctifying work not salvation work. All of Pauls talk about doing this, that and the other "by the Spirit" is addressed to Christians...those that are saved. His talk of good works has nothing to do with salvation - for there is "no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus"
You cannot be a Christian if you have not the Holy Spirits indwelling
You cannot be a Christian if you haven't been saved.
Irrespective of 'denomination' which has nothing at all to do with it, you cannot be a Christian if you have not been born again (although you don't necessarily have to realise you've been born again to be a Christian)
In Christ/not in Christ - that is the question.
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 05:08 PM
This message has been edited by iano, 29-Oct-2005 05:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:33 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM iano has replied
 Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 3:09 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 303 (255479)
10-29-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
10-29-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Love with all your heart
Legend writes:
Jesus doesn't say he'll measure you against his standard of love or any other's standard of love. He doesn't say that it's impossible to love God and your neighbour.
Which part of the word 'Command' do you not understand? Jesus said love God and love neighbour. Lets see what love means..
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends
Patently our version of love is a bit hit and miss compared to Gods standard.
"With all our heart, soul and mind". Reading it as "with all the heart, soul and mind I happen to have in any given situation" is reading something that isn't there. It's just an escape hatch. When a sharp word trips from our lips, how much did we struggle beforehand not to let it trip. Often not even the slightest bit of heart, soul and mind. Very often in fact we relish seeing it cut and hurt.
Just follow the commandments to the best of your ability. It's simple.
Best of your ability is not in the bible. "Love your neighbour as yourself" is a command. There is neither heart/soul/mind nor any other clause that can be seen to diminish the command as being total. Do you love you neighbour as yourself? Well do you punk?
People who don't even bother trying, I'd imagine. I know a few of those.
Surely there has been an occasion in your life when you broke a commandment and didn't put the least bit of struggle in to avoiding breaking it. If so you have broken the commandment given. And...
"He who follows the law but stumbles on even the smallest part is guilty of breaking all of it"
Seems a pretty impossible standard to me Legend

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-29-2005 8:41 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-29-2005 1:21 PM iano has replied
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM iano has replied
 Message 44 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 5:05 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 303 (255481)
10-29-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:28 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
Brian writes:
Does this include welcoming an atheist into heaven?
Aah...the old 'haul it out of context' ploy. I'm honoured...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:45 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 21 of 303 (255483)
10-29-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
10-28-2005 11:26 AM


Re: Damnation
Purpledawn writes:
Out of curiosity, what do you consider damnation to be?
Sorry about the delay in replying PD, mixed grape with a relatively tiny amount of grain last evening and I ain't feeling all that good..
Damnation?
Separation from Gods love (this would includes all the great aspects of life he gives to the righteous and the unrighteous alike through his providence: relationship, joy, happiness etc) as well as separation from the kind of love that will be available for those who finally get to meet him
Exposure to Gods wrath - terifying
I think the worst aspect will be the knowledge the person will carry for eternity is that it didn't need to be this way. Eternally hating oneself for getting oneself into the situation
I don't think there'll be any fires burning - it's just a picture of how horrible it will be

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2005 11:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 303 (255485)
10-29-2005 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
10-29-2005 12:45 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
No

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 12:45 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 1:01 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 303 (255488)
10-29-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Brian
10-29-2005 1:01 PM


Re: We had to agree sometime
A seed of agreement. Lets hope it becomes a...er...Flood
L8r dude. My hangover is pounding away and each keystroke just adds to it. "Enough already" as our Yankee buddies might say

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 10-29-2005 1:01 PM Brian has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 303 (255643)
10-30-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
10-29-2005 1:21 PM


Ringo writes:
Allow me to refer you back to your (failed) analogy in Message 9: The soldiers who went over the top did obey the command. Even the ones who failed to reach their objective did obey the command.
Your expanding on the analogy unnecessarily. The analogy ends at going over the top - not whether you subsequently storm machine gun nests. Do you obey the command "go over the top" or not? If you do fine. If you don't shot at dawn.
And nobody obeys the command "Love God/Love your neighbour.
Obedience is not about 100% success. Never was. Never will be. Obedience is about doing your best.
Assertion that obedience means trying to obey seems to me to be self-refuting. No matter: the purpose of this thread is to offer the chance for "try" to be extracted from the bible on matters of obeying the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-29-2005 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 10-30-2005 1:35 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 303 (255645)
10-30-2005 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 3:09 PM


Re: So Heaven is not about trying?
mrx writes:
Did Adam go to hell?
I haven't really checked out his story but recollect there is little said about him subsequent to his intro role. Whereas one might know someone (in the bible) is saved, a dearth of info doesn't mean they go to Hell. Anyway, Hell, as far as I understand it comes after Judgment - which hasn't happened yet
What do you feel was the end result of original sin?
I reckon it meant that every descendant of Adam gets the same (spiritual) genetic mutation. Sinful nature. There is no end result as such...it continues on its way today for those who are still spiritual descendents of Adam. The reason for the virgin birth was to break the mutant line, stop the infection transmitting to Jesus. Thus Jesus got the exact same chance that Adam got. A clean slate - free will only to obey or not obey.
Do you believe the "Spirit of God" referenced in the Hebrew Scriptures (aka Old Testament) is a reference to the Holy Spirit?
like "the spirit of God hovered over the waters?" Yup
What happens to babies if they die before they believe or know Jesus?
Don't know. "God wants that none should perish" How he does it for such babies or a sheep herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet, whose never heard the name Jesus I'm not sure. But I reckon he is able to find a way.
How were the Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures saved from the damnation of hell if they didn't know Christ yet?
In the same way we can look back and trust God that he took action at a certain past time, to save us and forgive tomorrows sin, then, so the faithful in the OT looked forward to the time when God would provide a saviour. They wouldn't have seen it as clearly as we can but the characteristics are the same:
People trusting in God and not themselves, recognising sin in themselves. People believing God and it being credited to their account as rightouesness. Its an eternity thing...
If Jesus indeed takes on the wages of sin for us, does this also mean that he'll endure our hangovers for us too.
A man reaps what he sows in this particular case I'm afraid to say

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 3:09 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 303 (255829)
10-31-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
10-29-2005 6:31 PM


Chiro writes:
Actually, an omnipotent god can do anything he wants, which is why I find it amusing when evangelicals try to tell us what god is going or not going to do.
I wonder could an omnipotent God decide to cease to exist in any way, shape or form, and then (when he doesn't exist)come into existance again. The question would arise: how could anything that didn't exist at all, haul itself into existance?
If he couldn't do this then onmipotence (a word that can only mean something to man with the various limitations man has) doesn't mean doing anything at all. Ex nihilo, nihilo fit after all...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 10-29-2005 6:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 10-31-2005 5:22 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 303 (255830)
10-31-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 7:24 AM


Re: Sheol/Hell
Purpledawn writes:
I think I'm going to start a thread about Hell not being a place of eternal torment.
God bless...you'll need it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 7:24 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 303 (255838)
10-31-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Legend
10-30-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Jesus gave directions
My understanding of a non-sequitur is a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premise
Your inference : Jesus gave the man directions that didn't lead to where the man wanted to go. My conclusion : Jesus lied to the man.
Jesus' instructions do lead exactly where the man wants to go. "Follow all the law to the letter or if your can't get your head around it all I'll summarize for you: love God/love your neighbour"
The maintenance manual for my Yamaha Fazer 1000 explains how one should go about servicing this motorcycle. That the person reading it has not the ability to carry out the task described therein is not a problem for the manual. The manual isn't lying. It is answering the question: how do I adjust the valve clearances on a fazer 1000. It can only describe the procedure in the way it must be done. If the person cannot carry out the task that is their problem. "You asked how do I adjust valve clearances - well, I'm telling you how"
AbE: And for anyone who reads the manual and weeps, Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life - no-one comes to the Father (or adjusts Fazer 1000 valve clearances) except through me"
AbE: this thread offers those who reckon they can "try climb the stairway to heaven" the opportunity to make that case biblically. Try in connection with salvation doesn't appear in the bible - I wonder why....
This message has been edited by iano, 31-Oct-2005 10:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Legend, posted 10-30-2005 2:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 10-31-2005 5:42 PM iano has replied
 Message 61 by Legend, posted 10-31-2005 6:27 PM iano has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024